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Thread: midi and SFX, G-Type, Showman

  1. #11
    Yes, i want to build an apple midi network through ethernet. Catalyst will then be controlling arkaos with midi (50-75m max) and powerpoint/keynote with MSC or midi (2m). I wrote MSC over 100m but it's only midi but that's the same principle in running long ethernet cables.

    I know it's perhaps a bit complicated to do it like this but the show has already been made with these programs before i had catalyst. So if i have the time i will try to convert everything to that.

    I will experiment a bit and let you know. But i cant do the long runs at home.

    There are other options like QLab and DLight to get it all working but for the moment i really into cat.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Yes, i want to build an apple midi network through ethernet. Catalyst will then be controlling arkaos with midi (50-75m max) and powerpoint/keynote with MSC or midi (2m).
    What Computer are you using to Run Arkaos and PP/Key ?

    Can you provide a diagram ?

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Catalyst will then be controlling arkaos with midi (50-75m max) and powerpoint/keynote with MSC or midi (2m). I wrote MSC over 100m but it's only midi but that's the same principle in running long ethernet cables.
    Not the same principles-

    if you need ethernet to go further reduce the speed to 10MBt
    the limit in ethernet is not electrical but protocol itself.
    its the collision detection not the electrical issues-
    http://www.geocities.com/SiliconVall.../ethernet.html
    What is a "collision"?
    At any one instance, in an Ethernet network, only one device can transmit. If two devices transmit at the same instance, then the signals from both devices will collide and a "collision" will occur. When a "collision" occurs, the signals will get distorted and the frame will be lost. Collisions are very common in a Ethernet network.
    with midi signals the limit is electrical determined by rise time of opto isolators used by midi receivers.
    there are no collisions.
    The interface operates at 31.25 (+/- 1%) Kbaud, asynchronous, with a start bit, 8 data bits (D0 to D7), and a stop bit. This makes a total of 10 bits for a period of 320 microseconds per serial byte.
    Circuit: 5 mA current loop type. Logical 0 is current ON. One output shall drive one and only one input. The receiver shall be opto-isolated and require less than 5 mA to turn on. Sharp PC-900 and HP 6N138 optoisolators have been found acceptable. Other high-speed optoisolators may be satisfactory. Rise and fall times should be less than 2 microseconds.
    http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/LINK/F_MIDI.html

  4. #14
    I've not had a chance to try this as I'm away from my test setup, but this is what Stage Research had to say about what is happening when they send a MSC command to Catalyst.

    I had originally stated the following...

    "Showman is exporting this hex string for a GO command on cue 1.5 on Channel 8 - F0 7F 08 02 40 01 31 2E 35 F7. Cue 1.5 is triggered just fine in Catalyst. SFX is exporting this hex string for the same command - F0 7F 08 02 40 01 31 2E 35 00 00 F7. Catalyst does nothing but receives the command and displays "1.5::" in the MSC Last GO window. What are those extra four zeros and how do I get rid of them?"

    Their response is...

    "Those zeros delimit the cue list and the cue path. According to the MSC
    spec, the sending device can optionally omit them (like ShowMan is doing)
    but the spec says:

    Controlled Devices should be able to accept more than one set of delimiter
    bytes, including directly before F7H, and even if no Q_number, Q_list or
    Q_path data are sent.

    It goes on to say:

    Controlled Devices which do not support Q_list (or Q_path) data must detect
    the 00H byte immediately after the Q_number (or Q_list) data and then
    discard all data until F7H is detected.

    That means that it's Catalyst that isn't working properly because it should
    be handling those zeros.

    The first thing I would try is to put in 1 for the cue list and 1 for the
    cue path and see if Catalyst will read that and probably ignore it. I'm
    thinking that Catalyst is freaking out because it's finding two delimiters
    next to each other (again, which it's supposed to be able to handle)."

    Again, I have not been able to try this yet, but do they have a point about Catalyst not handling the MSC command as per the MSC spec? I will give it a go and post results as soon as I have them.

    Richard - Show is at Birmingham Rep. Loading in on Monday, tech starting Tuesday afternoon. Will be at PLASA tomorrow, and in London doing another show the following week with DMX triggers (something I am much more familiar and comfortable with).

    Thanks for your help,

    Kevin
    Kevin Carson
    Lighting & Video Technician
    Royal Shakespeare Company

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kmclights View Post
    "Showman is exporting this hex string for a GO command on cue 1.5 on Channel 8 - F0 7F 08 02 40 01 31 2E 35 F7. Cue 1.5 is triggered just fine in Catalyst. SFX is exporting this hex string for the same command - F0 7F 08 02 40 01 31 2E 35 00 00 F7. Catalyst does nothing but receives the command and displays "1.5::" in the MSC Last GO window. What are those extra four zeros and how do I get rid of them?"
    Kevin
    kevin

    you dont have to get rid of them-
    just type this on the show cue - you want to trigger exactly how you see it received from the controlling device.

    so type '1.5::' as the show cue number.

    every single device i have ever seen has handled these things differently - and i try to preserve as much information about what the device is sending - so you can do different things if need.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by emilianomorgia View Post
    What Computer are you using to Run Arkaos and PP/Key ?

    Can you provide a diagram ?
    To keep it as simple as possible i will run on 3 macs, respecitivly 1 cat, 1PP, 1 arkaos :

    Master will be cat (Macbookpro) - Ethernethub - line 1 to PP (powerbook G4/1.5) and line2 to Arkaos (powerbook G4/1.5 with fw800 external drive : only 1 movie playing 640/480 photojpeg 75% of higher). All have tiger on them.

    I just tried the cat to PP setup with a utility called midipresenter which allows to send midi programs changes or MSC for controlling PP. With MSC, started in catalyst (internal or with internal relative) it worked fine but this was only the macbookpro connected to powerbook PP. The setup was done over a midi netwerk with a 1m ethernetcable.

    Richard : what about the collision thing when working with 3 macs : 1 macs transmits 2 signals. I presume this will be ok?

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    Richard : what about the collision thing when working with 3 macs : 1 macs transmits 2 signals. I presume this will be ok?
    collision nothing to do with short networks.
    its to do with the distance limit of ethernet - nothing to do with what you are doing at short lengths.

  8. #18
    But the arkaos setup will be 50-75m further or wont that make a difference?

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter View Post
    I just tried the cat to PP setup with a utility called midipresenter which allows to send midi programs changes or MSC for controlling PP. With MSC, started in catalyst (internal or with internal relative) it worked fine but this was only the macbookpro connected to powerbook PP. The setup was done over a midi netwerk with a 1m ethernetcable.
    If you wish you don't need to use real midi Cables , I mean you don't need to run midi signal . If I ware you I'll use Midi Network .

    Midi network will transmit MIDI OVER NETWORK .
    Also you want to create a network for the 3 machine for remote monitoring using tool like Apple Remote Desktop to be able to change files or just Sleep/restart the Macs .

    if you have time to spend on this technology you will see that it come handy for many other purpose .

    To start with read this

    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul0...cles/tiger.htm

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by samsc View Post
    you dont have to get rid of them-
    just type this on the show cue - you want to trigger exactly how you see it received from the controlling device.

    so type '1.5::' as the show cue number.

    every single device i have ever seen has handled these things differently - and i try to preserve as much information about what the device is sending - so you can do different things if need.
    Thanks Richard. All working fine now. Even works with multiple cue lists.

    Although not a problem for me right now, how does MSC Input 1 Trigger work? It says Preset in the Link Go To Cue List window, but is not editable to pick a cue list? I'm guessing that it is some way to trigger a preset directly, but then should it not say "Link Preset"?

    Thank you again,

    Kevin
    Kevin Carson
    Lighting & Video Technician
    Royal Shakespeare Company

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