DVI exstenders

[jasonrudolph]

I am doing quite a bit of shows, and there is a lot of DVI gear on it, but it is alwyas a mix. Like I said before, there are places where I feel DVI is a better route to go, and there are others where I still prefer to go SDI. I have yet to be on a show where one thing is the solution for everything. I have simply been trying to point this out.
While the gefen gear can be good, I feel there are still improvements to be made on it before Id want to start using it for all my stuff. Their support sucks, and finding replacement gear is not always easy.
Yes, imagepros have their issues, but those issues (such as overheating) are known by people who use them, and you design around those issues,.(i.e. dont stack them without ventilation)
I have not made a final judgement on the gear yet, but any judgements I have made thus far have been based solely on actual use of the gear, not based on specs.

I still cant go DVI if I need to send a feed to a video truck which can only take SDI, which happens all the time.
Its still easier for me to get SDI gear than DVI over fiber stuff, more shops have this gear in quantity.
Imagepros still give me more flexibility in troubleshooting systems.
I still cant go DVI inot most seamless switchers.

I am not saying I am against using DVI gear, just that it has its places in my opinion, as does SDI gear, and that I think some of the gear still needs to come a bit further. I'm sure in a few years, it will be more readily available, but SDI is not going away any time soon, and in an industry where we have to work with amny different types of gear, it is still something we need to plan on using.

Its just like lighting. You use different tools for different jobs.

Jason

[SourceChild]

Jason, Christian,
Seems like you two are lonely on this thread. I have been thinking and studying this myself for quite a while.

A great many projectors have DVI and SDI interface cards. Although many don't.

Not every show is a big "TV" budget show. Sometimes it's hard to even justify the cost of renting a catalyst much less a light console.

I am torn now on designing new Catalyst systems with SDI converters or DVI over ethernet converters built into the case.

The simple point is that I have had my share of Gefen extenders fail. I also know that Cat5e is cheaper that 75 Ohm Coax. I also know that companies having video projectors typically have plenty of Coax and very little Cat5e.

DVI to SDI converters are expensive compared to DVI over ethernet solutions. The bottom line is that SDI converters work. DVI over ethernet boxes still have a failure rate.

I don't own any ImagePros and I don't intend to get any. The cost is ludicrous except for those still lost in the TV world of big budgets. I have a scalar, it's called Catalyst. If I do a show where I'm feeding the video guys, I'll feed them hopefully SDI but it's not hard to get a cheap DVI to RGB-HV converter.

[litemover]

The thinklogical DVI extenders are absolutely brilliant. They have several advantages over SDI or RGB-HV, they cost more than Geffen but they are worth it.

The advantages are that they only need a single line of fiber to run to the other side of the extender (no Cat5e, no multiline fiber), however, they now have 2 fiber line outs just in case you want to A. have a backup line, or B. run one output to either two stacked projectors or one active and one spare.

They don't require any Cat5e, just fiber which is very cheap now, just buy a spool and lamp kit. It is so cheap that you can literally throw it away at the end of the gig if you wish.

They have an additional DVI-D monitor out for viewing so that you don't need any DA's, especially if you are using a dual outputted machine.

They cost heaps cheaper than an Imagepro HD.

You can run, if you so desire and have the resources in your machines, 4:2:2 TO 4:4:4 colorspace codecs and HD progressive easily and for a lot cheaper.

The fiber is impervious to Hum or EMI of any kind.

Thinkogical also has a relatively inexpensive DVI-D or Fiber routing system that can be routed via a web interface, Serial, or normally, by hand.

Apart from the aforementioned points of DVI and the TDMS transport technology that handles it (full frame buffering), it makes no sense monetarily or for quality to either convert your pure DVI-D digital signal technology into SDI using a very expensive HD Imagepro or for many Catalyst owners, Down converting to analogue (RGB-HV) and then up converting to an SD Imagepro unless you own them yourself or occasionally rent them.

Many LED processors will only take DVI-D.

The quality of running pure DVI-D from your Mac straight to your source is noticeably outstanding.

In the end, It's all subjective to each persons needs, if you are running a single screen relatively close to your machine without any TV politics or scrutiny, and you have a good handle on things, by all means go with RGB-HV, I used to run straight RGB-HV to multiple projectors and it looked fine, even on TV.

If you already own a bunch of Imagepros, or have a vested intrest in them, stick with that route and try to get your clients to stick with you, but if you are on the brink of deciding whether or not to purchase a bunch of ImageproHDs, router, and package or go straight DVI all the way through a DVI or fiber routing system to the projector/LEDproccessor for your company, seriously reconsider and visit Thinklogical first, save yourself a lot of money for far superior technology that isn't on the brink of becoming redundant, at least not for a while.

After seeing the Thinklogical products in action now for two shows, knowing how much savings it is, and how easy it was to get fiber feeds plugged in, having a build in DA for a preview monitor plus a spare fiber out where that in itself would take an additional ImagePro, if I had to choose between specing Imagepros or a Thinklogical system, I would go with Thinklogical except where I would need an Imagepro to convert to an analogue signal, though if I were specing the gig and were going Thinlogical, everything I would spec down the line would be DVI-D anyway.

If I were doing things on the cheap and had a very supportive and cooperative team that wouldn't throw me under the bus if they saw a slight hum in the projector(s) and would be able to live with Humbucking RGB-HV without getting deep into politics and try to ruin my credibility afterwards, I would go straight RGB-HV to the projectors and save even more money.

The bottom line is how much quality you need for the amount of money that you have and how much polotics you are dealing with afterwards because let's face it, Catalyst and all lighting based Media Servers can become very political in the TV industry or where their used to be someone who ran the decks/watchout system, or whatever.

If you are a company who owns a bunch of Catalysts, yet pays for Imagepro rentals on nearly every output of your system for every gig and you do a lot of gigs, spend the money and purchase a Thinklogical system instead of renting ImageproHDs all the time. What you'll save on Imagepro rentals will pay off your system within a year if you do regular events. It's the difference between renting an house and owning one, only the house you are buying is brand new and has a pool, jacuzzi, and sauna, the house you are renting which is ok, but it is old, used, and doesn't even have a Jacuzzi.

If you hardly rent Imagepros but every once in a while, stick with them unless you are able to charge extra for DVI-D extenders to amortize the cost of purchasing Thinklogical or Gefen DVI-D Extenders.

If it ain't broke at all, don't fix it but what do I know anyways...

CC

[SourceChild]

The thinklogical DVI extenders are absolutely brilliant.
...they cost more than Geffen but they are worth it.
...having a build in DA for a preview monitor plus a spare fiber out....

This is a good answer and a very good suggestion.

I would go straight RGB-HV to the projectors and save even more money.

I'm trying to be the intelligence behind the video projection systems. That means owning the control systems and media servers and leaving video runs and projectors to whichever video company gets hired. If the most common standard is RGB-HV, this is why I would use it. If I know companies are using projectors with SDI then I would send SDI and just tell their techs to plug in the coax to the SDI.

If it were my production gear all the way, I would be sold on the thinklogical solutions easily.

Catalyst and all lighting based Media Servers can become very political in the TV industry

Yes and it might piss off many of you reading this who are TV people to know that the greatest value I offer my clients is in cutting the fat and eliminating costs.

I am a visual designer and even though I am also a DoP, the work I love doing is creating visual sets for nightclubs, concerts, and recently even people's houses and condos. The "TV Fat" is all stuff I just cut an get rid of and save tremendous amounts of money.

If you are a company who owns a bunch of Catalysts, yet pays for Imagepro rentals on nearly every output of your system for every gig and you do a lot of gigs, spend the money and purchase a Thinklogical system instead of renting ImageproHDs all the time.

I try to stay away from gear like imagepros that rent for almost as much as the damned Catalysts themselves. For this reason I would use a Thinklogical system if I had to purchase one.

Very good suggestions though and very compelling reasons offered.
Thanks