midi and SFX, G-Type, Showman

I've got a show next week that I'm going to be recieving my cue triggers via midi from SFX. It is the SFX version without midi show control, so I'm a bit baffled by how to get Catalyst to recieve GO commands for the cue list using midi notes. So my first question is how do I do that? I've found the midi triggers panel, and set it to receive on midi channel 2, Note 1. But not sure how I relate that to the cue list.

Thinking more broadly, is there a way, via midi, to get Catalyst to "listen" to the cue list in SFX, G-Type, and/or Showman. If there was a way, then I could just create a parallel cue list in Catalyst and attach the appropriate presets to the cues without having to have the sound op create specific triggers for me.

Likewise I would be interested in doing the same with a Strand 500 series LX desk. Would save me having to remote in and put in triggers or having the LX op do it for me.

Thanks,

Kevin

i wrote something quickly.

i think strand 500 did midi show control?

( midi triggers- trigger pdf below )

Thank you. Much appreciated.

Regarding MSC, is there anything in that specification that allows for devices to listen to other device cue lists? So I could just setup a parallel cue list in Catalyst and the only thing that the sound or LX people would need to do was to turn on some setting that would allow a broadcast of what the cue list was doing?

Kevin

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Originally Posted by kmclights

Thank you. Much appreciated.

Regarding MSC, is there anything in that specification that allows for devices to listen to other device cue lists? So I could just setup a parallel cue list in Catalyst and the only thing that the sound or LX people would need to do was to turn on some setting that would allow a broadcast of what the cue list was doing?

Kevin

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hog2's always send out a msc cue from the cue lists
this is described in my web manual - i attach image.

they send out a cue list and a cue number - for example
fader 1 cue 2 sends out msc go 2:1

you attach this to a show cue in catalyst- and they automatically track.

i have done many shows in the past using this-

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as far as different consoles -
every console is different-
the hog2 worked the best.
other consoles might also do this.

some shows i have seen recently have done this with grandma

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Originally Posted by kmclights

I've got a show next week that I'm going to be recieving my cue triggers via midi from SFX.Kevin

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where is your show?
London?

What about using MSC over 100m ethernet cable with internal midi sync over ethernet mac os 10.4?

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Originally Posted by Peter

What about using MSC over 100m ethernet cable with internal midi sync over ethernet mac os 10.4?

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what do you mean 'using msc over 100m ethernet cable'?

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Originally Posted by samsc

what do you mean 'using msc over 100m ethernet cable'?

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I think he want to use Apple network midi ....

I've tried few times to work with it , but I never been able to make it work .

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Originally Posted by emilianomorgia

I think he want to use Apple network midi ....

I've tried few times to work with it , but I never been able to make it work .

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not sure he does - as you need computers at both ends to do anything meaningful.

jl cooper do midi line amplifiers for doing midi over long distances.

http://www.jlcooper.com/pages/mla.html

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MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) is an increas- ingly important consideration for schools, recording facilities, stadiums, arenas, hotels, amusement parks, or other facilities where MIDI messages are required to be sent a long distance, or to multiple locations.

The MIDI standard only permits a maximum cable run of less than 50 feet. The innovative MLA Series MIDI Line Amplifiers overcome this limitation.

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midi is a current loop signal- driven through an optical isolator - its not voltage driven.

the capacitance of the line limits the rise time of the signal to a certain cable distance.

Yes, i want to build an apple midi network through ethernet. Catalyst will then be controlling arkaos with midi (50-75m max) and powerpoint/keynote with MSC or midi (2m). I wrote MSC over 100m but it's only midi but that's the same principle in running long ethernet cables.

I know it's perhaps a bit complicated to do it like this but the show has already been made with these programs before i had catalyst. So if i have the time i will try to convert everything to that.

I will experiment a bit and let you know. But i cant do the long runs at home.

There are other options like QLab and DLight to get it all working but for the moment i really into cat.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Yes, i want to build an apple midi network through ethernet. Catalyst will then be controlling arkaos with midi (50-75m max) and powerpoint/keynote with MSC or midi (2m).

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What Computer are you using to Run Arkaos and PP/Key ?

Can you provide a diagram ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Catalyst will then be controlling arkaos with midi (50-75m max) and powerpoint/keynote with MSC or midi (2m). I wrote MSC over 100m but it's only midi but that's the same principle in running long ethernet cables.

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Not the same principles-

if you need ethernet to go further reduce the speed to 10MBt
the limit in ethernet is not electrical but protocol itself.
its the collision detection not the electrical issues-
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconVall.../ethernet.html

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What is a "collision"?
At any one instance, in an Ethernet network, only one device can transmit. If two devices transmit at the same instance, then the signals from both devices will collide and a "collision" will occur. When a "collision" occurs, the signals will get distorted and the frame will be lost. Collisions are very common in a Ethernet network.

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with midi signals the limit is electrical determined by rise time of opto isolators used by midi receivers.
there are no collisions.

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The interface operates at 31.25 (+/- 1%) Kbaud, asynchronous, with a start bit, 8 data bits (D0 to D7), and a stop bit. This makes a total of 10 bits for a period of 320 microseconds per serial byte.
Circuit: 5 mA current loop type. Logical 0 is current ON. One output shall drive one and only one input. The receiver shall be opto-isolated and require less than 5 mA to turn on. Sharp PC-900 and HP 6N138 optoisolators have been found acceptable. Other high-speed optoisolators may be satisfactory. Rise and fall times should be less than 2 microseconds.

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http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/LINK/F_MIDI.html

I've not had a chance to try this as I'm away from my test setup, but this is what Stage Research had to say about what is happening when they send a MSC command to Catalyst.

I had originally stated the following...

"Showman is exporting this hex string for a GO command on cue 1.5 on Channel 8 - F0 7F 08 02 40 01 31 2E 35 F7. Cue 1.5 is triggered just fine in Catalyst. SFX is exporting this hex string for the same command - F0 7F 08 02 40 01 31 2E 35 00 00 F7. Catalyst does nothing but receives the command and displays "1.5::" in the MSC Last GO window. What are those extra four zeros and how do I get rid of them?"

Their response is...

"Those zeros delimit the cue list and the cue path. According to the MSC
spec, the sending device can optionally omit them (like ShowMan is doing)
but the spec says:

Controlled Devices should be able to accept more than one set of delimiter
bytes, including directly before F7H, and even if no Q_number, Q_list or
Q_path data are sent.

It goes on to say:

Controlled Devices which do not support Q_list (or Q_path) data must detect
the 00H byte immediately after the Q_number (or Q_list) data and then
discard all data until F7H is detected.

That means that it's Catalyst that isn't working properly because it should
be handling those zeros.

The first thing I would try is to put in 1 for the cue list and 1 for the
cue path and see if Catalyst will read that and probably ignore it. I'm
thinking that Catalyst is freaking out because it's finding two delimiters
next to each other (again, which it's supposed to be able to handle)."

Again, I have not been able to try this yet, but do they have a point about Catalyst not handling the MSC command as per the MSC spec? I will give it a go and post results as soon as I have them.

Richard - Show is at Birmingham Rep. Loading in on Monday, tech starting Tuesday afternoon. Will be at PLASA tomorrow, and in London doing another show the following week with DMX triggers (something I am much more familiar and comfortable with).

Thanks for your help,

Kevin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmclights

"Showman is exporting this hex string for a GO command on cue 1.5 on Channel 8 - F0 7F 08 02 40 01 31 2E 35 F7. Cue 1.5 is triggered just fine in Catalyst. SFX is exporting this hex string for the same command - F0 7F 08 02 40 01 31 2E 35 00 00 F7. Catalyst does nothing but receives the command and displays "1.5::" in the MSC Last GO window. What are those extra four zeros and how do I get rid of them?"
Kevin

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kevin

you dont have to get rid of them-
just type this on the show cue - you want to trigger exactly how you see it received from the controlling device.

so type '1.5::' as the show cue number.

every single device i have ever seen has handled these things differently - and i try to preserve as much information about what the device is sending - so you can do different things if need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emilianomorgia

What Computer are you using to Run Arkaos and PP/Key ?

Can you provide a diagram ?

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To keep it as simple as possible i will run on 3 macs, respecitivly 1 cat, 1PP, 1 arkaos :

Master will be cat (Macbookpro) - Ethernethub - line 1 to PP (powerbook G4/1.5) and line2 to Arkaos (powerbook G4/1.5 with fw800 external drive : only 1 movie playing 640/480 photojpeg 75% of higher). All have tiger on them.

I just tried the cat to PP setup with a utility called midipresenter which allows to send midi programs changes or MSC for controlling PP. With MSC, started in catalyst (internal or with internal relative) it worked fine but this was only the macbookpro connected to powerbook PP. The setup was done over a midi netwerk with a 1m ethernetcable.

Richard : what about the collision thing when working with 3 macs : 1 macs transmits 2 signals. I presume this will be ok?

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Originally Posted by Peter

Richard : what about the collision thing when working with 3 macs : 1 macs transmits 2 signals. I presume this will be ok?

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collision nothing to do with short networks.
its to do with the distance limit of ethernet - nothing to do with what you are doing at short lengths.

But the arkaos setup will be 50-75m further or wont that make a difference?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

I just tried the cat to PP setup with a utility called midipresenter which allows to send midi programs changes or MSC for controlling PP. With MSC, started in catalyst (internal or with internal relative) it worked fine but this was only the macbookpro connected to powerbook PP. The setup was done over a midi netwerk with a 1m ethernetcable.

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If you wish you don't need to use real midi Cables , I mean you don't need to run midi signal . If I ware you I'll use Midi Network .

Midi network will transmit MIDI OVER NETWORK .
Also you want to create a network for the 3 machine for remote monitoring using tool like Apple Remote Desktop to be able to change files or just Sleep/restart the Macs .

if you have time to spend on this technology you will see that it come handy for many other purpose .

To start with read this

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul0...cles/tiger.htm

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Originally Posted by samsc

you dont have to get rid of them-
just type this on the show cue - you want to trigger exactly how you see it received from the controlling device.

so type '1.5::' as the show cue number.

every single device i have ever seen has handled these things differently - and i try to preserve as much information about what the device is sending - so you can do different things if need.

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Thanks Richard. All working fine now. Even works with multiple cue lists.

Although not a problem for me right now, how does MSC Input 1 Trigger work? It says Preset in the Link Go To Cue List window, but is not editable to pick a cue list? I'm guessing that it is some way to trigger a preset directly, but then should it not say "Link Preset"?

Thank you again,

Kevin