Best File Format

I've read the version 3 HES manual and searched these forums. What is the best format for Catalyst? The manual says DV, but I'm not seeing that option in After Effects or iMovie (the two programs my designer works in mostly). The manual says DV-PAL is different, but if native DV is the best, how do you render to that?

My designer is rendering most things to Animation. Catalyst doesn't like running more than one Animation file at a time, even running on a Dual Core 3Ghz Intel. I've played around with H.264 and DV-PAL, with varying degrees of success. Although as I recall, H.264 takes a REALLY long time to render.

I'm working in a theatre environment with pieces of footage that are between 1 and 5 minutes long. All files are 25fps and outputs are set to 75Hz.

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin

The two best choices are either DV-PAL (or DV-NTSC), at around 50% quality

Or

Photo-Jpeg at aorund 50-63% quality.

Photo-jpeg has a better color space, and is resolution independant, so you can do odd resolutions. If you don't need the extra color space, and are dealing with the standard resolution of DV, then DV is the better choice, as you an get a few more layers to play back at once.
All of this should be tested by you as well, as depending on your hardware configuration, you might be able to use better quality settings, etc. Sometimes though, I have found that the difference in quality might not be very noticeable (depending on what kind of screen you are using) compared to the difference in performance between different quality settings.

Personally, I almost always use Photo-jpeg.

dv is best - and the quality is absolutely fine for live action type things.
The performance is very consistent encoding is quick - and its totally compatible with all the mini-dv cameras out there.
but it only works at one image size.

if you need other size you have to use photojpeg- the performance isnt as good as dv - but its fine-
it works better than all other codecs - h264 ( all key frames ) works but performance not so good.

animation codec can be very close to uncompressed datarates - so its not a cpu problem but a disc bandwidth problem-

What size of images are your animation files?

Richard

Is animation a suitable codec for use with simple alpha channel movies? Large simple blocks moving on an transparent background?

The movies come out at about 1mb if not less.

It seems to work but am concerned that if i start making larger and more complex movies i will run into trouble.

Nick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by technick

Richard

Is animation a suitable codec for use with simple alpha channel movies? Large simple blocks moving on an transparent background?

The movies come out at about 1mb if not less.

It seems to work but am concerned that if i start making larger and more complex movies i will run into trouble.

Nick

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what size image?
what computer/disc?

animation is almost uncompressed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samsc

dv is best - and the quality is absolutely fine for live action type things.
The performance is very consistent encoding is quick - and its totally compatible with all the mini-dv cameras out there.
but it only works at one image size.

if you need other size you have to use photojpeg- the performance isnt as good as dv - but its fine-
it works better than all other codecs - h264 ( all key frames ) works but performance not so good.

animation codec can be very close to uncompressed datarates - so its not a cpu problem but a disc bandwidth problem-

What size of images are your animation files?

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What do you mean DV only works with one size? We are rendering in DV-PAL at 1024x768 or whatever size we tell After Effects to be. What is the material difference between Native DV that you get off a camera and DV-PAL? And how would we render back to Native DV? After Effects and i-Movie do not seem to have a "DV" option. It is DV-PAL or DV-NTSC, and from what I am gathering, DV-PAL that you render to is different from DV that you get off a camera.

Animations are 1024x768. I thought, possibly incorrectly, that 1024x768 was the best size as that is the native format of the projector. Plus, my designer often zooms in on stuff in Catalyst, so lower resolution will just mean more distortion from the start.

Thanks for your help,

Kevin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmclights

What do you mean DV only works with one size?

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you cant render dv at 1024x768- sure you can tell after effects - but it doesnt do anything.
dv only works at 720x576 - it is fixed size and fixed data rate. around 5:1 compression - which is quite good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV

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DV uses DCT intraframe compression at a fixed bitrate of 25 megabits per second (25.146 Mbit/s), which, when added to the sound data (1.536 Mbit/s), the subcode data, error detection, and error correction (approx 8.7 Mbit/s) amounts in all to roughly 36 megabits per second (approx 35.382 Mbit/s) or one Gigabyte every four minutes.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmclights

We are rendering in DV-PAL at 1024x768 or whatever size we tell After Effects to be. What is the material difference between Native DV that you get off a camera and DV-PAL?
It is DV-PAL or DV-NTSC, and from what I am gathering, DV-PAL that you render to is different from DV that you get off a camera.

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There isnt any difference- they are the same. identical
dv-ntsc works at 60hz and has a slightly difference image size.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmclights

And how would we render back to Native DV? After Effects and i-Movie do not seem to have a "DV" option.

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you didnt look in the right place. or misunderstood codecs and their function in the workflow.

i believe imovie only works with dv files.
aftereffects has output codec settings that can do anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmclights

Animations are 1024x768. I thought, possibly incorrectly, that 1024x768 was the best size as that is the native format of the projector. Plus, my designer often zooms in on stuff in Catalyst, so lower resolution will just mean more distortion from the start.

Thanks for your help,

Kevin

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you have to work with what your system can do-

sure the projector has a native resolution -

but often its not practical to work at this resolution- or doesnt actually produce any visibile difference at all.
sure you can do higher def - but making it all work tends to cost more money higher spec machines, faster discs.

you might be surprised if you actually knew that the resolution of tv signals is really only around 320x240 or thereabouts - and all these years you never really noticed.

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zooming in- when there is often no detail to zoom in on - is an artistic decision really. does the zoom look ok? its really an artisitic not a technical judgement.

Thanks for your help once again.

Kevin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmclights

Thanks for your help once again.

Kevin

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kevin.

i should come and see you when you are in london.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmclights

The manual says DV, but I'm not seeing that option in After Effects or iMovie (the two programs my designer works in mostly). The manual says DV-PAL is different, but if native DV is the best, how do you render to that?
Kevin

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dv works well- and you cant get it wrong - as it only works one way-

my testing shows that dv files are 50% faster than photojpeg at the same size.

The graph below - from a 2.6Ghz Intel with x1900 video card using MTRON 32GB SSD disc - shows the performance of more than 80 different codecs.
DV- is the fastest - meaning that layers playback better, and you can play more of them at the same time.

The performance changes a lot with different image sizes, different codecs, and different codec settings.

there are no codecs you cannot use, but there is a huge performance difference between codecs.
Sure you can do 100% photojpeg if you want - but you only get 1 layer.

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Originally Posted by samsc

i should come and see you when you are in london.

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By all means. I'm at the Geilgud from Monday until the following Monday, except Tuesday. Tech starts Wed. morning. 1st Preview on Friday.

Will have most time this Monday as designer not in until tech on Wed.

Kevin