Is SDI on the horizon?

[ajmaudio]

I have been searching high and low for a an actual graphics card with sdi output that has mac support with no success. Pc users have several to choose from but nobody seems to want to even approach the mac platform. what will it take to get this to happen? You would think with a fair amount of macs in the broadcast/video editing world that someone could make money doing this. Have I missed something? Is there something out there??? Is someone working on it? It would seem that this would solve many problems and greatly expand our flexibility with catalyst.

[prodigal2]

these tick all the boxes:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/dviextender/

just not a card.

Phil

Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[ajmaudio]

Yes there are several dvi to sdi solutions out there but none of them can accomplish one thing.... bring broadcast "refresh" rates into the computer domain. This would, at least in theory, solve some difficult problems. However, since ou brought up that particular box, have you used it?

[ajmaudio]

http://www.matrox.com/video/es/press/releases/matrox_multi_io_mac/

I would also like to bring this card up again as its supposed to be shipping now.... I have no idea if it supports opengl. Has anyone got any info on this thing?

[samsc]

Yes there are several dvi to sdi solutions out there but none of them can accomplish one thing.... bring broadcast "refresh" rates into the computer domain. This would, at least in theory, solve some difficult problems. However, since ou brought up that particular box, have you used it?

the "broadcast" refresh thing is an edid thing - the output device tells the computer what refresh rate and screen settings to use

you need to try something like this

http://www.dviparrot.com/

things like image pros also usually do the right thing when they send edid settings to the mac

[samsc]

http://www.matrox.com/video/es/press/releases/matrox_multi_io_mac/

I would also like to bring this card up again as its supposed to be shipping now.... I have no idea if it supports opengl. Has anyone got any info on this thing?

these are a variation of capture cards and input/output cards-

you can do this with decklink and aja cards-

[ajmaudio]

I was under the impression that the sdi outputs available on cards such as the decklink cards where not suitable as an output from catalyst as they are not opengl and can cause issues. None of these cards that I have found appear to be useful as the primary output for a catalyst machine. Please tell me if I am missing something.

[ajmaudio]

no reply to my last anyone?

[ajmaudio]

I know I had read posts from the past stating that using the sdi outs on such cards was a nono. Has this changed?

[NevBull]

I would guess by the lack of "Yes" responses, we are still in the same situation! These cards have never been capable of processing the multiple streams of video that we demand.

[prodigal2]

I am working with the Blackmagic DVI-HDSDI boxes this week I will report back.. I have heard they are good mind.

Phil

Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[ajmaudio]

Thanks for responding Nev!
so you propose that the cards in question could work for say single video streams per output but not all the layering and such that we do as a result of lack of gpu power? Or lack of opengl perhaps? would make sense by physical appearance alone just about, no heat sinks, no fans...

Surely we can find or create a solution in this area. Am I the only one that thinks this would be a huge help for us?

Nev: Have you any experience with the DVI PARROT?

[NevBull]

Hiya

I am not proposing anything! Without knowing anything about these cards apart from a basic spec on a website - it's impossible to know if they can be used.

Yes - I have used the Parrots on several shows now, and keep one in my bag instead of the old DVI Detective. They are much more useful!

Nev.

[ajmaudio]

Thanks for the replay Nev... about the Parrot... I have been wondering if the parrot could force a very specific frame rate.. ie, 59.94hz as opposed to some variant of 60hz? the documentation seemed somewhat inconclusive. If I can get my output to stick at 59.94 I think my life may get much better... thanks for your time Nev.

[samsc]

Thanks for the replay Nev... about the Parrot... I have been wondering if the parrot could force a very specific frame rate.. ie, 59.94hz as opposed to some variant of 60hz? the documentation seemed somewhat inconclusive. If I can get my output to stick at 59.94 I think my life may get much better... thanks for your time Nev.

ask the manufacturers.

[ajmaudio]

I actually just got a response from them. They said you could input a specific resolution but by working with the software again there is a limit to this. IE you cannot do anything beyond an integer. So 50, 60.. but no 59.94 etc. You boys over in Europe must have alot fewer issues than those of us runnin ntsc...

[samsc]

I actually just got a response from them. They said you could input a specific resolution but by working with the software again there is a limit to this. IE you cannot do anything beyond an integer. So 50, 60.. but no 59.94 etc. You boys over in Europe must have alot fewer issues than those of us runnin ntsc...


You cannot do anything beyond an integer-


this is not true- the opposite is true-

none of the exact timings are integers.


---

also i believe i see 59.94 when i connect my latest mac mini to a screen using hmdi

and i believe my Kona LHi card shows non integer values including 29.97 for the hmdi output.

aja control panel image attached shows 29.97 on hdmi input and output- from my 5dMk2 camera... in NTSC mode

[samsc]

I was under the impression that the sdi outputs available on cards such as the decklink cards where not suitable as an output from catalyst as they are not opengl and can cause issues. None of these cards that I have found appear to be useful as the primary output for a catalyst machine. Please tell me if I am missing something.

these cards do not do graphics processing.


---
the output refresh rate is an edid thing -

[ajmaudio]

this is not true- the opposite is true-

none of the exact timings are integers.


---

also i believe i see 59.94 when i connect my latest mac mini to a screen using hmdi

and i believe my Kona LHi card shows non integer values including 29.97 for the hmdi output.

aja control panel image attached shows 29.97 on hdmi input and output- from my 5dMk2 camera... in NTSC mode

Sorry for the delay in getting to this post. I don't think i was clear. In the dvi parrot you cannot enter a non integer number. Does this mean that it will actually give you an integer refresh rate.. I suspect not. So to be clear you can type in 59 but not 59.94 when specifying a refresh rate. Even if you could I am not sure it would work. As to your hdmi stuff working thats good to know but as you certainly know we dont interface using hdmi all that often.. well at least I dont. Honestly I feel like the stupid guy in class or something haha. I cant tell if the reason I dont see more discussion of this topic is because not many people use catalyst this way or if I am just the only one that can't resolve this issue. I have never plugged into any device that can net me a refresh rate that will solve my jumpy video problem. What am I missing? haha.

On a side note I was curious if this issue is common among all servers or if this is perhaps a result of your desire to have exceedingly low latency and thus little or no use of a buffer or whatever it would take to make this a non issue.

I guess when you use video input like this in say an edit suite the edit suite buffers it or what not so that your view in the edit suit is smooth? I guess I should have kept taking those programming courses back in school so I could have all the answers... I hate not knowing

[samsc]

EDID works from the monitor to the computer -
and all refresh rates are in reality non-integers- there are no exact integer refresh rates- 60Hz is 60.02 and 75Hz is 75.03 at common screen sizes


i havent used parrot software-

---

on tv frame rates and EDID

the EIA-861B standard seems to define tv rates for EDID

apparently he document which defines this is here:

http://www.ent.eet-china.com/PDF/2007MAR/DTCOL_2007MAR26_INFDT_AN_01.pdf?SOURCES=DOWNLOAD





Sorry for the delay in getting to this post. I don't think i was clear. In the dvi parrot you cannot enter a non integer number. Does this mean that it will actually give you an integer refresh rate.. I suspect not. So to be clear you can type in 59 but not 59.94 when specifying a refresh rate. Even if you could I am not sure it would work. As to your hdmi stuff working thats good to know but as you certainly know we dont interface using hdmi all that often.. well at least I dont. Honestly I feel like the stupid guy in class or something haha.

[ajmaudio]

yes I understand the EDID stuff, thanks... the non integer part etc......

Thanks for the link... great info. Perhaps one could use the timings table to construct a resolution with the desired refresh via a parrot using this info.

[FxDrew]

I have a Black Magic Design DVI Extender and it works great if you are doing broadcast resolutions/refresh rates:

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/dviextender/

I barely see any latency with this thing.

[ajmaudio]

have you used this while using video capture and been able to keep our playback of video capture smooth? wont work when I need DVI at broadcast rates but could come in handy in other situations

[FxDrew]

I haven't used it while also doing video capture, so I can't speak to that.

Cheers,

[SourceChild]

I don't think i was clear. In the dvi parrot you cannot enter a non integer number.

You'd be surprised how easy it is for a manufacturer to change firmware and control software. If you ask them add higher resolution control to the refresh rate settings they might.

The bottom line though is that no two TV refresh rates are the same. Hence the need for "Genlock."

The only way a computer will be able to perfectly sync with a video system is if someone creates a device that can GENLOCK the computer to a specific refresh rate. However, this is a train wreck waiting to happen considering the way that a GPU cluster functions.

[ajmaudio]

well lets talk about other media server for a second... shutter to think! I havent much experience with some of the other servers when it comes to video input... do they all suffer from this?

Have you found a decent solution to this? You seem to use video input quite alot.. I would much appreciate your input.

[SourceChild]

This is a very sticky subject. Yes. All software based video capture IE media servers will suffer some sort of artifacts from time to time.

I have used video input alot. However, I don't always care for it.

When I've dealt with video companies that are used to the standard way of doing IMAG they always fuss about the fact that it looks choppy and there's a delay. In most cases for RAW IMAG I agree and opt for a Spyder or Encore for the screens or LED which are specifically getting the IMAG.

However, Catalyst is absolutely amazing with the color and visual effects it can perform. It's also amazing to have floating windows of images moving dynamically. Granted this can be done on a nice multi-ME switcher that has several keys and dve but Catalyst is much more artistic and much faster.

I think as a creative tool the video capture into Catalyst is amazing and I will even exploit the frame offsets as a manner to make the IMAG look like it has more Cinematic.

The bottom line though is that any media server which is using software to process IMAG captured a video will see some (even if subtle) artifacts.

There's a reason image processors are still so freaking expensive.

[ajmaudio]

thanks for that reply.... I look forward to the day this is a non issue!... I am certain it is possible with present technology... just need to get it done!