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MattMills
19-02-2010, 10:12 PM
Hello everyone, I am about to use my PixelMad for the first time and I was wondering if you guys might give me some advise. Heres what I have going on....

GrandMA going to my new ELC Node 6 (ip 2.0.0.2). Node 6 going to my Catalyst (V257 on my Mac Pro ip 2.0.0.1)

I have 24 Martin StageBars and i have copied the fixture info into the library and all seems to be fine so far. I have them all placed in PixelMad, all that seemed to go well.

And thats about as far as ive gotten. I plan on using the grand MA to control the Stage Bars as well as use PixelMad to control them for some effects. I am going to put the rest of my rig on the board XLR outputs and I will be putting all the Stage Bars on either an NSP (if needed?) or use the ports on the Node 6. And, how do I go about addressing them? Lets say I have 4 trusses, each with 6 Stage bars. I was going to patch them on the GMA per truss, universe 5 on 1 truss, universe 6 on the next truss, and so on.

Can you guys point me in the right direction of getting this all configured? Any help is greatly appreciated. This is my first go around putting it all together my self. Thanks, Matt

samsc
20-02-2010, 08:53 PM
sounds pretty sensible to me-

MattMills
21-02-2010, 01:29 AM
I think what Im looking for is some help with the addressing side of things.

If Im running universes 5-8 via my Node 6 would I even need a NSP? All that will be on them will be the Stage Bars that I have in PixelMad.

And could someone explain the Artnet addressing a little for me? Im still a little confused by it. If I wanted to assign universe 5 (E) would it actually be Artnet 4? Meaning that 0 is actually 1? Hope the questions Im asking make sense. Please let me know if they dont and ill try to describe things differently.

Thanks for any help, Matt

Mr_P
21-02-2010, 02:09 AM
Matt

Artnet addressing:

An artnet 'Subnet' contains 16 DMX universes.
(Dont confuse 'Artnet Subnet' with the networking term 'subnet')

Artnet Subnet 0 = 16 DMX universes (512 channels)
The first universe is 0, the last is 15 (or F in hex) = total 16
The first DMX universe would be Subnet 0, universe 0
the next: Subnet 0, universe 1 etc

[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E,F] HEX = 16 DMX universes
[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,,10,11,12,13,14,15] Decimal = 16 DMX universes

the next subnet is 1, it also has 16 DMX universes.
Some consoles will continue the numbering sequentially
ie 16,17,18...
this is acually subnet 1, universe 0 s1,u1 s1,u2 ... etc

Catalyst numbers the Artnet universes starting at 0 and keeps going...
in the PRO version there are 10 DMX universe outputs which can be patched to ANY Artnet universe output. (2nd tab - DMX/Artnet HUD)

If you are using universe 5-8 in catalyst for output, you should configure your Node6 or NSP to output these universes (ie Subnet 0, universe 5-8)

If in doubt about universes - check out the 3rd tab in the DMX/Artnet HUD.
Click on the relevant Artnet universe - Any level changes will highlight in blue.

Suggest you work 1 universe at a time to help identify.

Patching per truss sounds sensible. Obviously your PixelMad patch should match this.


I plan on using the grand MA to control the Stage Bars as well as use PixelMad to control them for some effects.

Not sure how you are thinking about using the Desk AND PixelMad to control the StageBars? Artnet does an HTP merge if 2 controllers are patched to the same universe. Not sure if this will work in your scenario. You could use DMX swtching if the Node 6 supports it (Luminex can do this) - else you may have to choose either PixelMad OR the MADesk for control of the fixtures.

How do you have everything connected? what are you using the NSP for - im not sure you will need it if using the Node6 for DMX output from PixelMad...

Do get back to me if you have any further queries


Simon

samsc
21-02-2010, 05:39 AM
some console and equipment manufacturers label the first universe 0 some label it 1

i follow the convention used on artistic licence boxes using the rotary switch selector which labels the first universe as 0.

Users seem to have been very confused by the number zero appear as an index - so some manufacturers label the first universe as 1.

zero in binary does not mean nothing - it means the number where are the bits are set to zero.




I think what Im looking for is some help with the addressing side of things.

If Im running universes 5-8 via my Node 6 would I even need a NSP? All that will be on them will be the Stage Bars that I have in PixelMad.

And could someone explain the Artnet addressing a little for me? Im still a little confused by it. If I wanted to assign universe 5 (E) would it actually be Artnet 4? Meaning that 0 is actually 1? Hope the questions Im asking make sense. Please let me know if they dont and ill try to describe things differently.

Thanks for any help, Matt

miguelangelvalera
21-02-2010, 08:50 AM
Hello,

Have you changed the NSP modo of MAnet to Arnet? if you change the modo is clear the adreess.

Miguel

MattMills
21-02-2010, 01:00 PM
Awesome, thanks guys, this was exactly what I was looking for. I couldnt find any of this online. I was really surprised by the lack of info on Artnet, well, at least what I could find. Thanks everyone.

MattMills
21-02-2010, 01:07 PM
Matt
Not sure how you are thinking about using the Desk AND PixelMad to control the StageBars? Artnet does an HTP merge if 2 controllers are patched to the same universe.


I am adding to an existing show that already has the Stage Bar programmed. Not much though, just solid colors, so it wouldnt be a loss if I had to re do it. The Node 6 has an option per port to configure the output to be LTP Merge, I assumed this would work.

Mr_P
21-02-2010, 01:23 PM
Wayne at Artistic Licence invented artnet... check out the Artistic Licence website for details and info.

I can recommend his book: Rock Solid Ethernet
http://www.artisticlicence.com/index.php?mode=products&sub=overview&action=&category_id=&product_id=337&project_id=&policies_id=&cart_id=&order_id=

Also check out the DMX workshop software to understand more about how it all works...
http://www.artisticlicence.com/index.php?mode=products&sub=overview&action=&category_id=&product_id=351&project_id=&policies_id=&cart_id=&order_id=

the first 5 pages of this manual is usefull to give an explanation:
http://www.artisticlicence.com/WebSiteMaster/User%20Guides/art-net.pdf
(p5 onwards is compex..>!!)

If you need more specific info - let me know

Simon

Mr_P
21-02-2010, 01:39 PM
I am adding to an existing show that already has the Stage Bar programmed. Not much though, just solid colors, so it wouldnt be a loss if I had to re do it. The Node 6 has an option per port to configure the output to be LTP Merge, I assumed this would work.

Not used the ELC Node6 myself - but it sounds like that might work.
The Luminex box has a function to be able to switch between 2 controllers via a single DMX chanel trigger - which is how I've done it in the past.

My only thought is that an LTP merge may not be ideal if the 'other' controller changes - a switch function might be more reliable...

However, If you only have static colours programmed on the MA - it might be easier just to re-program those cues using catalyst/pixelmad as the controller (very easy) and have the stage bars permanently connected to catalyst - thus avoiding any merging or switching scenarios.

Simon

MattMills
22-02-2010, 01:47 AM
Thanks Simon. I am going to have to remove the existing Stagebar programming anyways, I am running them in a different channel mode this go around.

The reason I want to use them from both the Console and from the Catalyst is because I have a few effects that I have in mind that I can knock out real quick with the effects engine.

Thanks to everyone for the help, I think I have everything configured how I need it. Now I just have to get the rig in front of me and go at it. Unfortunately that doesnt happen for another 3 weeks.

samsc
22-02-2010, 09:09 AM
I am adding to an existing show that already has the Stage Bar programmed. Not much though, just solid colors, so it wouldnt be a loss if I had to re do it. The Node 6 has an option per port to configure the output to be LTP Merge, I assumed this would work.

you need an htp merge- to control from 2 different devices-
you will have to check whether your box will do an HTP merge-

artnet is just a ethernet protocol its doesnt do any merging - it depends on the interface box

LTP merging wont work - as both devices are going to be sending information at the same time-

samsc
22-02-2010, 09:25 AM
it seems to indicate here elc node 6 does htp merge:

http://www.elclighting.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=4


Features:
Remote programming and monitoring
DMX input options like Normal and Backup
DMX output options like:
- Normal
- Merging in HTP / LTP or custom
- Priority merging
- Merging with softpatch


not used or tested myself


Thanks Simon. I am going to have to remove the existing Stagebar programming anyways, I am running them in a different channel mode this go around.

The reason I want to use them from both the Console and from the Catalyst is because I have a few effects that I have in mind that I can knock out real quick with the effects engine.

Thanks to everyone for the help, I think I have everything configured how I need it. Now I just have to get the rig in front of me and go at it. Unfortunately that doesnt happen for another 3 weeks.

David Monguet
22-02-2010, 12:11 PM
I'm using ELC node8 and you can do HTP merge or LTP merge in each output, same as Luminex.

Mr_P
22-02-2010, 01:58 PM
by definition - an HTP merge wont work for a colour device!... an LTP merge would be more usefull on a colour device.
However, as previously stated - a switch function between 2 ports would be of more use as there are 2 controllers connected.

Merging usually requires hardware - ie: an Artnet box (node)
However, it is also possible with some software:
http://www.artisticlicence.com/index.php?mode=products&sub=overview&action=&category_id=4&product_id=350&project_id=&policies_id=&cart_id=&order_id=

Art-Net II Protocol Release V1.4 Document Revision 1.4ak 9/11/09 (extract)
Data Merging:
The Art-Net protocol allows multiple nodes or servers to transmit ArtDmx data to the same universe.
A node can detect this situation by comparing the IP addresses of received ArtDmx packets. If ArtDmx packets addressed to the same Universe are received from different IP addresses, a potential conflict exists.

Merge is implemented in either LTP or HTP mode as specified by the ArtAddress packet.

When a node provides multiple DMX512 inputs, it is the responsibility of the Node to handle merging of data. This is because the Node will have only one IP address. If this were not handled at the Node, ArtDmx packets with identical IP addresses and identical universe numbers, but conflicting level data would be transmitted to the network.

samsc
22-02-2010, 02:36 PM
why you say " by definition HTP merge doesnt work on colour device!"?

I think you have not got something right in your understanding of LTP and HTP?

this is the scenario-
two consoles or devices transmitting continuous information- at the same time-
you know how LTP works? ( last takes precedence ... )

For example-
On console A - transmit channel 1 as say 50 -
On console B - transite channel 1 as 25 -

with LTP data flips between 25 and 50- continuously- this is not very useful - particularily on a colour channel - your colour flips constantly between 2 values- breaking scrollers - or flickering LED products-

With HTP ( highest takes precedence ) output is 50 - data doesnt flip- it stays constant-

How you work with HTP is when you have 2 consoles outputting at the same time - you set the output channels to 0 ( fader down ) when you want the other device to have precedence.

The 0 zero value works as an implicit channel by channel switch between the two data streams-
When you set one controller to 0 values - whatever channels - the other devices channels with any greater value than zero has the output-
you do not have to do any additional switching of devices or configuration-


?




by definition - an HTP merge wont work for a colour device!... an LTP merge would be more usefull on a colour device.
However, as previously stated - a switch function between 2 ports would be of more use as there are 2 controllers connected. .

samsc
22-02-2010, 02:56 PM
i think you misunderstand the concept of the ArtAddress packet within the artnet spec-

Merging is not implemented in either LTP or HTP mode as specified by the ArtAddress packet.

this is a configuration packet not an implementation -

this is a packet that tells a device to do configure something - if it wants to - not an implementation-
it is a configuration specifically for an artistic licence box - usually because they lack any kindof user interface - buttons or web interface -

typically these packets are only used by artistic licence - as other manufacturers have different functionality- that does not fit into 'the artnet spec' as artistic licence sees it-

the confusing come about because artistic licence manufactures its own products to do these things- and it is talking about configuring its own products-
and in particular you should never assume that any other device other than an artistic licence device will actually be reconfigured by this or any other packet-

there is no requirement for an ELC product to respond to - or be reconfigured by the ArtAddress packet- it is not an implementation.



Merging usually requires hardware - ie: an Artnet box (node)
However, it is also possible with some software:
http://www.artisticlicence.com/index.php?mode=products&sub=overview&action=&category_id=4&product_id=350&project_id=&policies_id=&cart_id=&order_id=

Art-Net II Protocol Release V1.4 Document Revision 1.4ak 9/11/09 (extract)
Data Merging:
The Art-Net protocol allows multiple nodes or servers to transmit ArtDmx data to the same universe.
A node can detect this situation by comparing the IP addresses of received ArtDmx packets. If ArtDmx packets addressed to the same Universe are received from different IP addresses, a potential conflict exists.

Merge is implemented in either LTP or HTP mode as specified by the ArtAddress packet.

When a node provides multiple DMX512 inputs, it is the responsibility of the Node to handle merging of data. This is because the Node will have only one IP address. If this were not handled at the Node, ArtDmx packets with identical IP addresses and identical universe numbers, but conflicting level data would be transmitted to the network.

Mr_P
22-02-2010, 05:32 PM
I think you have not got something right in your understanding of LTP and HTP?


I fully understand the difference... a switching method would be better and safer. HTP method relies on the values staying at zero on the other desk... not necessarily guaranteed on an existing show which is what Matt is trying to do... However - if the values do stay at zero - then its a valid method.

samsc
22-02-2010, 06:09 PM
what reasons you say then that

by definition - an HTP merge wont work for a colour device!... an LTP merge would be more usefull on a colour device?

when actually the opposite true- htp merge works - ltp merge doesnt.

it is easy to ensure that values stay at zero- you pull the cue fader down-

LTP would not work under any circumstances - as the outputs fight each other-

it is not feasible in most circumstance to change the configuration of devices - and i would suggest that changing device configuration in any live show - is much less safe than htp priority-
you skip a song for example which might have a config cue - and you have no idea what state the device is in?

htp priority is stateless and easily reversible - changing device configuration is hidden and not easily observed.

and htp priority works on each and every single channel on every universe - and is totally controlled by the lighting console on every single channel- on every universe-

you can only switch entire universes in bulk?
unless there is a super complex per channel priority system somewhere that i dont know about-



I fully understand the difference... a switching method would be better and safer. HTP method relies on the values staying at zero on the other desk... not necessarily guaranteed on an existing show which is what Matt is trying to do... However - if the values do stay at zero - then its a valid method.

MattMills
23-02-2010, 01:16 AM
Well, once I get the rig all set up and playing nice, ill try both ways and post the results.

MattMills
23-02-2010, 01:56 AM
Oh, I have another quick question. Under Artnet/Universe Map, what should my artnet out be set at? 255.255.255.255?

samsc
23-02-2010, 08:38 PM
Oh, I have another quick question. Under Artnet/Universe Map, what should my artnet out be set at? 255.255.255.255?

255.255.255.255 is broadcast address- for all local networks - so data gets to all nodes irrespective of ip address

for a small number of universes this is fine