Timing and playback speeds of frame-rates

[ryanww]

I have a project coming up where I will have a advertisement video (with audio) that will be playing and switching back and forth with a logo file. Reason I want to use catalyst is so I can control it with the light board and everything is kept very simple. This will be in HD as well.

I haven't gotten their content yet, so I have just been downloading HD movies I can find online. I am struggling to figure out the correlation on how Catalyst does the frame playback compared to just quicktime.

For example. This one particular file is encoded at 23.98 FPS. If I play it back with the cat set to 30FPS, it is a little bit glitchy. If I select 23.98, it is very jumpy. Although I would think it would be perfect. If I set it to 50FPS or higher, it is perfectly smooth. I have even tried taking the movie file, converted the timing to be 30fps non drop using final cut pro and with cat set to 30FPS it was slow.

I am just having a hard time understanding how the frame rate comes into play with playing back these media files that aren't just generic patterns and videos.

Thanks,
Ryan

[Mr_P]

There can be a number of factors that may cause YOUR movie to glitch, if its just a web download, aside from your hardware or any catalyst settings.

Better to create a small file yourself in FCP in the the correct codec and at the corect frame rate for the desired output device you will be using.

I can send you a demo movie if required for testing - but first - can you confirm your setup, output device and refresh rate (led / projection etc) and required format and frame rate...

When playing content with audio - catalyst prioritises the audio (if set to 'play audio' playmode). You should set the playback rate to match the movie.

For best results on 'most' systems - you should ensure that your movies are rendered as 'Apple intermediate Codec' (AIC) at the required frame rate (eg 25 or 30fps) and that you playback from a Solid State Drive (SSD)

Do contact me if you require further help /info

Simon

[SourceChild]

Going from Cinema rate to video rate without using a smooth conversion is always going to create issues. Compressor is marginal at best. I use After Effects but Cleaner is better.

It's an extra step but if you take your web clips and throw them into FCP or AE, convert them to uncompressed in one batch and then convert them back to AIC at 30fps. This usually alleviates the glitches I have seen.

An idiot check is to verify you are not 29.97 but actually 30fps.

You can also hard lock your refresh rates to 29.97 if you have that as your native.

I feel your pain. I had all kinds of issues with this on the opening acts I had for Tay as well as her own audio source files.

Honestly, as much as I love Catalyst. I still use an HD Doremi anytime I have Audio playback with video. Of course I do get funny looks when I do this and use the deck control from Catalyst to operate the playback. Who cares as long as it's solid.

[ryanww]

Well I am unsure of the specs yet on the computer that will be running it. Currently I am on my Mac pro, 2x2.8 quad 6 gig ram 8800gt. I am running it off a 10k raptor drive as I don't have an SSD yet. May buy one. But I am not all that sure it will be necessary as this clip will be the only thing playing from it other then a logo that the output will switch back and forth with. This will be projected on a screen with a double stacked set of panasonic 7700's most likely. (DLP 7k projectors). Currently I am just using my LCD display for testing.. I can hook up a little notebook projector if needed.

I have gotten the final content from the client. Attached is the specs on the file listed from FCP. What would you reccomend I do with it? Convert it straight to AIC or go through uncompressed to AIC with 30FPS?

And It wasn't that my computer never ran it smoothly, I just am trying to figure out why a movie that was encoded in 23.98fps was very choppy if cat was set to the same frame rate. My master clip is also encoded in 23.98FPS.

Thanks!

[prodigal2]

Personally I would ask your content folks to send you a quicktime uncompressed at 30fps version of the file and then encode into AIC and hold onto the uncompressed version. That will solve 99% of problems like this, also it is always good to get content sent as uncompressed unless your content providers are house trained and encode correctly in AIC.

If you cannot get the file uncompressed, then go the route Todd suggests, not forgetting to De-interlace the file before encoding to uncompressed.

BTW catalyst media playback is built upon quicktime, only the capture card side of things bypasses quicktime. But Catalyst is not good bedfellows with MPEG based content because it not frame absolute, Richard could possibly elaborate this.

Phil

Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[ryanww]

Should the uncompressed version be 8 or 10 bit uncompressed?

[prodigal2]

I tend to use 10bit. A DV cam only captures 8 bit FYI.
Also before encoding into AIC, deinterlace, or you can experience some weird field issues once encoded into AIC.

either should be fine, but 10 bit tends to handle grey scale better and depth of field.

Phil

Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[ryanww]

So looks like I am stuck with the file that was given to me (.mp4). I have tried bringing it into FCP, applying a de-interlace filter on it, and exporting it as uncompressed 10 bit 30fps. It really messed the video up and did not look good. Are you talking about deinterlacing the uncompressed file before exporting it as a AIC?

Playing back the file that I converted to AIC from the original within catalyst, it plays well on my system if I select lock to screen 1 divide - 59.98fps. I guess once I get it on the target system with the projectors I should just find what settings works best..

[samsc]

Catalyst is Frame based - not quicktime playrate based-


playback frame rates in catalyst are not related to the frame rate in the quicktime video files - unless you use audio playback-

what catalyst does is playback every frame at the frame rate set by the framerate menu-

in a movie 30 seconds long with a frame rate set by the movie makers of 23.98- there will be 719 frames- ( 23.98 * 30 )

catalyst will play each and every one of these frames at the speed set in the frame rate menu-

this is because vga and dvi screens work at 60Hz and/or 75Hz or similar frequencies- and this has nothing to do with anything in video world- 29.97 23.98 24 fps are all meaningless- they have to be fitted into the dvi/vga refresh rates/

in computer video world things have to be played back at the frequency of the output device-





I have a project coming up where I will have a advertisement video (with audio) that will be playing and switching back and forth with a logo file. Reason I want to use catalyst is so I can control it with the light board and everything is kept very simple. This will be in HD as well.

I haven't gotten their content yet, so I have just been downloading HD movies I can find online. I am struggling to figure out the correlation on how Catalyst does the frame playback compared to just quicktime.

For example. This one particular file is encoded at 23.98 FPS. If I play it back with the cat set to 30FPS, it is a little bit glitchy. If I select 23.98, it is very jumpy. Although I would think it would be perfect. If I set it to 50FPS or higher, it is perfectly smooth. I have even tried taking the movie file, converted the timing to be 30fps non drop using final cut pro and with cat set to 30FPS it was slow.

I am just having a hard time understanding how the frame rate comes into play with playing back these media files that aren't just generic patterns and videos.

Thanks,
Ryan

[samsc]

the real reason is that - catalyst ignores any quicktime movie frame rate - and plays back movies at the frame rate in the frame rate menu-

there are many reasons for this-

1. vga and dvi screens do not work at exactly 60Hz or 75Hz- playback has to be locked to what the screen works at -

2. All in and outpoints are specified in frames - this is the only possible way to specify time in any way that works with different file frame rates - or is accessible and uniform on multiple different lighting consoles-

3. People can and do mix up movie frame rates and different speeds of content-

4. playback of video should at all times play all the frames in a movie- and any other system than a frame based system will visually drop frames-

at any time in any place in order to preserve the timing of the movie-
for almost everyone this is not what they want-
this is what real world video based systems will do when doing time conversions.


There can be a number of factors that may cause YOUR movie to glitch, if its just a web download, aside from your hardware or any catalyst settings.

Better to create a small file yourself in FCP in the the correct codec and at the corect frame rate for the desired output device you will be using.

I can send you a demo movie if required for testing - but first - can you confirm your setup, output device and refresh rate (led / projection etc) and required format and frame rate...

When playing content with audio - catalyst prioritises the audio (if set to 'play audio' playmode). You should set the playback rate to match the movie.

For best results on 'most' systems - you should ensure that your movies are rendered as 'Apple intermediate Codec' (AIC) at the required frame rate (eg 25 or 30fps) and that you playback from a Solid State Drive (SSD)

Do contact me if you require further help /info

Simon

[samsc]

you dont want to do any frame rate conversions anywhere in post production - just leave everything as it is-
convert nothing from any frame rate to any other frame rate- it doesnt do anything useful
all it does it duplicate frames up.

---

29.97 is totally meaningless for a computer based system-

its has to work with the output screen refresh rates-
---

Audio has to take total priority as audio glitching is a disaster-
video has to chase audio - not the other way round-




Going from Cinema rate to video rate without using a smooth conversion is always going to create issues. Compressor is marginal at best. I use After Effects but Cleaner is better.

It's an extra step but if you take your web clips and throw them into FCP or AE, convert them to uncompressed in one batch and then convert them back to AIC at 30fps. This usually alleviates the glitches I have seen.

An idiot check is to verify you are not 29.97 but actually 30fps.

You can also hard lock your refresh rates to 29.97 if you have that as your native.

I feel your pain. I had all kinds of issues with this on the opening acts I had for Tay as well as her own audio source files.

Honestly, as much as I love Catalyst. I still use an HD Doremi anytime I have Audio playback with video. Of course I do get funny looks when I do this and use the deck control from Catalyst to operate the playback. Who cares as long as it's solid.

[samsc]

if movie was shot at 23.98 - and post-produced at that frame rate -

you really cant do any frame rate conversions - they wont work-

changing the frame rate will just duplicate frames - or do something horrible to the content like frame blend.
Frame blending will alter the content in a way which might be completely unacceptable to client-






Personally I would ask your content folks to send you a quicktime uncompressed at 30fps version of the file and then encode into AIC and hold onto the uncompressed version. That will solve 99% of problems like this, also it is always good to get content sent as uncompressed unless your content providers are house trained and encode correctly in AIC.

If you cannot get the file uncompressed, then go the route Todd suggests, not forgetting to De-interlace the file before encoding to uncompressed.

BTW catalyst media playback is built upon quicktime, only the capture card side of things bypasses quicktime. But Catalyst is not good bedfellows with MPEG based content because it not frame absolute, Richard could possibly elaborate this.

Phil

Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[samsc]

this is an extremely tricky area - even more so with audio

try un-modified 23.98 file - dont do any frame rate conversions

use playaudio - then use a higher playback frame rate in catalyst frame rate menu- if the monitor is 60Hz - try to use 60Hz playback in catalyst - but only some graphics cards will work at all well at this rate

catalyst uses movie frame rate only in play audio modes - but audio takes total priority


I have a project coming up where I will have a advertisement video (with audio) that will be playing and switching back and forth with a logo file. Reason I want to use catalyst is so I can control it with the light board and everything is kept very simple. This will be in HD as well.

I haven't gotten their content yet, so I have just been downloading HD movies I can find online. I am struggling to figure out the correlation on how Catalyst does the frame playback compared to just quicktime.

For example. This one particular file is encoded at 23.98 FPS. If I play it back with the cat set to 30FPS, it is a little bit glitchy. If I select 23.98, it is very jumpy. Although I would think it would be perfect. If I set it to 50FPS or higher, it is perfectly smooth. I have even tried taking the movie file, converted the timing to be 30fps non drop using final cut pro and with cat set to 30FPS it was slow.

I am just having a hard time understanding how the frame rate comes into play with playing back these media files that aren't just generic patterns and videos.

Thanks,
Ryan

[samsc]

So looks like I am stuck with the file that was given to me (.mp4). I have tried bringing it into FCP, applying a de-interlace filter on it, and exporting it as uncompressed 10 bit 30fps. It really messed the video up and did not look good. Are you talking about deinterlacing the uncompressed file before exporting it as a AIC?

Playing back the file that I converted to AIC from the original within catalyst, it plays well on my system if I select lock to screen 1 divide - 59.98fps. I guess once I get it on the target system with the projectors I should just find what settings works best..

this is the best way - if your system can handle it use 59.98 fps frame rate- ( screen 1/2 div 1 in framerate menu )

dont do any frame rate conversions in post - dont convert it to 30fps leave it at 23.98

convert file to aic leave the frame rate the same

for audio playback the rules are different from non-audio

[ryanww]

Thanks Richard for the excellent explanation. I will try this on the show machine hopefully in the next couple days. It plays wonderfully on my Mac Pro system I personally have.

[samsc]

When playing content with audio - catalyst prioritises the audio (if set to 'play audio' playmode). You should set the playback rate to match the movie.
Simon

If your technical problems is the playback of a single layer with frame rate of 23.98 with audio--

you dont set the playback rate to match the movie- because it then doesnt match the screen refresh rate - which is the most important thing of all - if preserving visual integrity is the ultimate goal-


when using audio everything is non-synchronised between screens and movie-

the best thing to try to do is set the playrate to the full screen rate

try screen 1/2 div 1 or 2- approx 60Hz or 75Hz
- if and only if your system can handle it -

this speeds up the processing of all video in the system to 60 or 75Hz - and will not work if you have lots of layers-

there is a very complex technical reason to do with asynchronous frame processing - why this is the best solution- with audio-

[samsc]

Thanks Richard for the excellent explanation. I will try this on the show machine hopefully in the next couple days. It plays wonderfully on my Mac Pro system I personally have.

its really a very tricky area-

its even more tricky when people try to do audio and non-audio playback at the same time! because they need different ways of working...

if you have a single movie with audio- just increase the framerate to screen 1 div 1-
this technique will work with audio movies - but it doesnt work with video only movies....

[samsc]

Thanks Richard for the excellent explanation. I will try this on the show machine hopefully in the next couple days. It plays wonderfully on my Mac Pro system I personally have.

it works on newer mac pros.

older g5's its definitely a lot harder -

i had a problem on a byu show with hidef and audio before xmas - and it looked like the graphics card couldnt do it - it just couldnt cope with the data and frame rate

[adam]

i had a problem on a byu show with hidef and audio before xmas - and it looked like the graphics card couldnt do it - it just couldnt cope with the data and frame rate

Can I ask what graphics card it was that didn't cut it?

Is there any preference for use in Catalyst between the ATI's (like 4870) and nVidia cards? (GT120, 8800GT, GTX275)? I know sometimes applications slightly prefer one card to the other.

[samsc]

Can I ask what graphics card it was that didn't cut it?

Is there any preference for use in Catalyst between the ATI's (like 4870) and nVidia cards? (GT120, 8800GT, GTX275)? I know sometimes applications slightly prefer one card to the other.

card was in 4 year old g5 - this old cards arent useful guideline

---

dont use gt120 unless you have to is my only current beware -

i dont have enough info on others

[ajmaudio]

If you were also using some files without audio this would cause them to play fast i would think? would one just slow the playback speed for that layer down to compensate or am I missing a better solution here.


If your technical problems is the playback of a single layer with frame rate of 23.98 with audio--

you dont set the playback rate to match the movie- because it then doesnt match the screen refresh rate - which is the most important thing of all - if preserving visual integrity is the ultimate goal-


when using audio everything is non-synchronised between screens and movie-

the best thing to try to do is set the playrate to the full screen rate

try screen 1/2 div 1 or 2- approx 60Hz or 75Hz
- if and only if your system can handle it -

this speeds up the processing of all video in the system to 60 or 75Hz - and will not work if you have lots of layers-

there is a very complex technical reason to do with asynchronous frame processing - why this is the best solution- with audio-

[samsc]

If you were also using some files without audio this would cause them to play fast i would think? would one just slow the playback speed for that layer down to compensate or am I missing a better solution here.

yes it would cause them to play fast-

if you are using just video files - you use one of the frame rates that is locked to the screen


---

the 23.98 frame rate problem is a very specific problem - as it doesnt divide evenly into anything at all in vga/dvi world - and if you want to preserve the time length of the clip and not double up any frames -