Converting to HD-SDI

[SourceChild]

Something that has been killing me is the need to convert the Output of Catalyst into HD-SDI. This is especially true when I need to Genlock to a video switcher.

I prefer to use Fibre extenders whenever I link directly to a projector. I also use good old RGB-HV. (You'd be surprised how far a 5-wire run can be on 4GHz copper.)

However, my specific needs are for an HD-SDI solution.

Obviously I use ImagePros but this can get a little expensive when running a dozen or so projectors into an HD-SDI system.

I have also used the Gefen DVI to HDSDI Pro Scalers and Scaler Plus. These things are a major pain in the a$$ though. Their genlock totally sucks and hops a half frame out of phase constantly in an HD system.

What I would like to know is what everyone else is using. What works?

Has anyone used any of the HDMI to HD-SDI solutions from DVEO, AJA, Thinklogical, or BlackMagic? How about any other DVI (or even VGA) to HD-SDI solutions?

Your feedback helps, thanks.

[prodigal2]

I would recommend looking through the TV-One line of products:

http://www.tvone.com/index.php

They produce extremely reliable products, and they have excellent customer support. I'm sure Simon will be able to give you a more specific model numbers, but at a quick glance on their website you should find what you are looking for. i would say they are the next best thing to Image Pros .

I have now given up on Gefen products as a rule, because I have been let down a fair few times.

Phil

Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[Mr_P]

We use the TV-One C2-2355A Scan Converter
http://www.tvone.com/c2-2300a-main.shtml
(more functionality than an ImagePro for about a quarter of the price...)

or the TV-One C27200 Dual Scan Converter
http://www.tvone.com/c2-7200-main.shtml
(Dual channel Scan Converter and switcher / processor)

and also the TV-One 1T-C2-520 DVI to HD-SDI as a simpler (cheaper) option
http://www.tvone.com/1t-c2-520-main.shtml

Simon

[SourceChild]

Something I forgot to mention was that I have researched dozens of converters and scalers. I have a very good idea of which ones do what. The important thing for me is to know which ones have proven reliable in application.

The three big things for me are:

Genlock: Both Black and Tri
Some sort of Web or USB based control panel
Ability to hold or generate an accurate EDID (or VGA in)


Hey Simon,

That is very good to know. TV One are the kind I have been looking at. However, I wanted field results before I buy.

Philip,

Thanks for chiming in.

To you both (and anyone else), what are your results, pros & cons?

You're right about the Gefens. 7 out of 8 VGA extenders have failed in less that 3 years. The only reason I use the DVI to HD-SDI Pro Scalers is because they are less than $1200 USD per channel. That's cheap.

:cool: Another question is if anyone knows a converter solution that will go over fibre?

[SourceChild]

Has anyone used the DVEO Scan DO HD?
http://www.computermodules.com/broadcast-systems/DVI-to-HD-SDI.shtml

Anyone used with Tri-Level or Blackburst in an HD system?

[Mr_P]

Hi Todd

Happy New Year!....

The 2355A an 7200 have ethernet and RS232 control and command set that can be used from catalyst custom serial controls.

There is also windows based software available - good for initial setup on 7200 series - RS232 connectivity - not usb (well - unless you use a USB-RS232 ;) ) - no web interface. Onboard menus can take a little time to get used to - but make sense once you've used them a couple of times...

Genlock on both models have some a few different sync options - but works with black burst.

Both can do VGA input (see full feature set)
Cant program an EDID in the same way as ImagePro - however, you can program custom resolutions in a similar way - but there are limits upper due to the graphics chipset.

For EDID programming - check out the new 'DVI Detectives' from Pharos
(not sure when available though)

TV-One give excellent support over here and they are good at adding new features (if sensible and possible...)

I have a number of the 2355's and 7200 - I;ve had no problems over the last few years...

Let me know if you need any more info

Simon

[prodigal2]

Todd

I would say about your fiber question would it not make more sense to convert pre or post the fiber? Or are you looking for a solution that could save you half a frame or more?

Also why do you want a web or USB menu solution? or is so you can remotely deal with a box up in the truss?

Can't recommend TV-one stuff enough for the price, and they have saved me from having to use extron stuff on fair few times. worth a look, and they seem to gaining market share here in the UK.
Only downside is the programable front buttons, but its nothing a sharpie and some camera tape can't fix.

Cheers
Phil

Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[SourceChild]

Well Phillip,

I am notorious for using Catalyst as a video switcher so saving frames is always a plus. The reason I ask about fibre solutions is because I noticed the DVEO devices have a fibre out.

I try to convert to fibre whenever I can because I prefer running fibre. I have been investigating projectors which have fibre in cards. I have also been looking at fibre routers as well.

It's more a thought than anything else.

The reason I mention web or usb solutions is in contrast to the crappy IR remotes which never work on the gefen devices. Obviously if a device has a front panel with easy control then I don't need a remote.

I mention USB because I found a Black Magic device which converts HDMI to HDSDI and it connects directly to the computer using it through USB.

I am open to entertaining all kinds of solutions. The bottom line is to find solutions which work in the field and not the kind that work in theory until you discover the bugs in application.

Thanks for your help.

[ajmaudio]

really don't wana hijack this thread at all but I have raised this question elsewhere and with Richard without response. You mention using the catalyst as a switcher.. I have been doin the same as of late with the AS cards and am still having some frame loss issues similar to those with black magic. its a late model macpro etc. Perhaps sourcechild would entertain speaking about his experience via pm so as not to hijack? Would really like to know if this should be happening. I am also interested in this thread topic.. looking forward to seeing where it goes.. thanks

[NevBull]

with any switcher you will always get frame loss - the active silicons result in a lesser delay than many. We have to get the data through a number of processes before it's squirted out of the DVI ports.

for my 2 penny's worth - if you can live with a little frame delay when switching - Catalyst is great, if not, use a proprietary switcher designed to do that job.

[ajmaudio]

I should be more clear.. sorry.. its not the delay.. I find it very acceptable for what we do. What I am experiencing is dropped frames resulting in jerkiness etc. It will happen for a few seconds out of every minute and then clear up. For instance.. If I am using 2 lfg cards, of the eight inputs at any one time there is likely one that will briefly have some frame loss... it will clear up and then reappear elsewhere within a short time. This happens with or without any other playback load on the machine. The GPU usage is minimal also... it seems to be a buffer issue similar to the problems with the later generation od Black Magic hd extreme cards if that helps describe it any.

[prodigal2]

It sounds like a timing/sync issue...

How are your feeds being routed before they come to the Catalyst, and what are they? Do you have a switcher sending auxes to you? If so it may be worth checking the cards on the crate, check they have timed outputs and not just monitor outputs.
Also is the glitching consistent across all your 8 inputs, as such a thing can be? Also do you have any Digital to Analogue converters in your system?

I know its more questions than answers, but quite often the issues arise upstream from the Catalyst. :eek:

cheers
Phil

Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[Mr_P]

Have you tried testing with a single source connected to a Distribution amplifier and gradually increasing the connections to the 8 inputs to see what happens - feeding all 8 inputs with the same source gradually?

Simon

[ajmaudio]

the cameras hit a DA and then straight into the cat. No digital to analogue conversions or anything like that. Very simple setup. With it being digitized I don't even think the cameras were getting reference. with it being digitized can it really be a sync issue? The problem generally only affets one input at a time and it jumps randomly among them. As for the other question I haven't progressively gone from one input to 8 but I have used as few as maybe 4 and it has absolutely no affect on the issue. So am I to take it that you guys are NOT having this issue? If not I would really appreciate some help getting it lined out! I really don't think its a bandwidth thing on the pci bus or anything but as of yet I have not come to any conclusions and have suspected driver/buffer issues.

[Mr_P]

can you confirm the specification of your MacPro and its hardware version. (Model Identifier). Can you create a system profilie and post it here. (see catalyst menu)

I've sucessfully run 3x LFG4 cards with 12 inputs connected to cameras with no problems - that was on a 2007 3G 4core MacPro

What other hardware do you have installed? Are you running remote desktop or anything similar at the same time as Catalyst? What HardDrives and Graphics cards do you have?

Can you confirm the version of LFG4 driver you are using - and MacOS version.

Try un-installing the driver (see below) and both cards.
Reset the system PRAM (apple+option+P+R) at re-boot
(check your settings afterwards)
Shutdown - and install only 1 card and install the driver below (if Leopard)
test with a blank - new catalyst show - to see what happens.
connect video inputs 1 by 1
if all ok - shutdown - install the 2nd card - and repeat tests

Correct driver for Leopard is: 'LFG Direct Driver 2.0.Leopard.dmg'
LFG Driver:
http://homepage.mac.com/simonpugsley/.Public/Drivers/LFG%204/LFG%20Direct%20Driver%202.0.Leopard.dmg

from Active Silicon Documentation:
Uninstalling the Video Driver (VDIG)
You will need to know the root/Administrator password to perform a driver uninstall.
1. Open up a terminal window from a 'Finder' window:
Run '/Applications/Utilities/Terminal'.
2. Type the following commands exactly as shown:
sudo rm -rf /Library/QuickTime/lfgvdigx.component
sudo rm -rf /System/Library/Extensions/cdapci.kext
sudo rm -rf "/Library/Documentation/Active Silicon"
exit
3. Then close the terminal window, shutdown and restart the computer.


Do get back to me with the information requested - and let me know if you are still having issues.

Regards

Simon

[ajmaudio]

cant make a profile for a few days but its a late 2008 8 core 3.2ghz, 10GB ram, 8800gt, OCZ vertex ssd for content, and there is nothing else running such as remote desktop.. the only other thing would be the DMX>Artnet. We use an Enttec ODE plugged into the primary ethernet controller. As i said gpu and cpu usage are very low. Is the driver posted on the AS site teh same as the one you posted? It appears to be. Also.. I assume the LFG Direct API has to be enabled in preferences of Cat and it is.

[Mr_P]

Remove the driver you installed from the Active Silicon website (follow instructions above) - re-boot

Install the driver from the link on my website - this driver is written by Richard for Catalyst and differs from the 'standard' driver available from Active Silicon

Let me know if this solves the issue

Simon

[SourceChild]

Simon's method is best. I have done this method dozens of times.

Its time consuming but it's the best and only way to resolve issues with capture cards. (Also the same method for the Phoenix Cards with the exception of the driver file.)

I have still seen this happen regardless of any troubleshooting. I am dealing with this very issue in fact in a nightclub. Fortunately I am the only one who notices but it still drives me nuts.

My speculation is electrical noise and subtle phasing problems which cause the digitizer to perceive a drop. I can't confirm this but nothing else makes much sense.

[ajmaudio]

The driver listed on AS page is catalyst specific.. suspect it is the same but I will try it. Are you guys installing the driver or card first?? And my OS is the current leopard release, NOT snow leopard. Anyone tried it in Snow? I left snow alone cuzz it seemed less stable in testing when using fx, but if its better for this I may give it another go. SO ya... which first the card or the driver?

[Mr_P]

It doesn't matter...
On new builds I've installed card first
On existing servers - the drivers are usually pre-loaded (from last time)

However - in your case - Id remove the card and follow instructions to remove driver
- reboot
- reset PRAM (allow to boot)
- shtdown
- re-install card
- boot up
- instal drivers
- reboot
- start NEW blank catalyst show
- enable LFG in preferences
(hopefully should work....)

The file is sent a link to above DEFINITELY works - its the one I use (almost) everyday!

Simon

[samsc]

noone seems to have asked the fundamental questions with video input ....

so i need to ask them-

what camera source ntsc or PAL?

what refresh rate and frame rate are you running the screens at?

what frame rate is catalyst set to playback at?





I should be more clear.. sorry.. its not the delay.. I find it very acceptable for what we do. What I am experiencing is dropped frames resulting in jerkiness etc. It will happen for a few seconds out of every minute and then clear up. For instance.. If I am using 2 lfg cards, of the eight inputs at any one time there is likely one that will briefly have some frame loss... it will clear up and then reappear elsewhere within a short time. This happens with or without any other playback load on the machine. The GPU usage is minimal also... it seems to be a buffer issue similar to the problems with the later generation od Black Magic hd extreme cards if that helps describe it any.

[samsc]

there is no difference between drivers ( mine or AS )-

the only difference is that the active silicon dmg installs a quicktime driver for use with other quicktime applications-

the quicktime driver does not have good low latency performance- and should not be used- though it does work in catalyst.

those system commands you detailed - uninstall the quicktime driver-


Remove the driver you installed from the Active Silicon website (follow instructions above) - re-boot

Install the driver from the link on my website - this driver is written by Richard for Catalyst and differs from the 'standard' driver available from Active Silicon

Let me know if this solves the issue

Simon

[samsc]

the problem as described is not a driver problem -

but a frame rate thing- i await more information

1. depends on the frame rate of the video input -
2. the frame rate of the display -
3. and the playback rate set in catalyst application-

you see if the person is using NTSC which may or may not be close to 29.97 Hz - and their screen is 1024x768 which is 60.02Hz- it doesn't evenly divide- into the screen refresh - and every minute or so - something has to give ...


the video input as described is working correctly-



can you confirm the specification of your MacPro and its hardware version. (Model Identifier). Can you create a system profilie and post it here. (see catalyst menu)

I've sucessfully run 3x LFG4 cards with 12 inputs connected to cameras with no problems - that was on a 2007 3G 4core MacPro

What other hardware do you have installed? Are you running remote desktop or anything similar at the same time as Catalyst? What HardDrives and Graphics cards do you have?

Can you confirm the version of LFG4 driver you are using - and MacOS version.

Try un-installing the driver (see below) and both cards.
Reset the system PRAM (apple+option+P+R) at re-boot
(check your settings afterwards)
Shutdown - and install only 1 card and install the driver below (if Leopard)
test with a blank - new catalyst show - to see what happens.
connect video inputs 1 by 1
if all ok - shutdown - install the 2nd card - and repeat tests

Correct driver for Leopard is: 'LFG Direct Driver 2.0.Leopard.dmg'
LFG Driver:
http://homepage.mac.com/simonpugsley/.Public/Drivers/LFG%204/LFG%20Direct%20Driver%202.0.Leopard.dmg

from Active Silicon Documentation:
Uninstalling the Video Driver (VDIG)
You will need to know the root/Administrator password to perform a driver uninstall.
1. Open up a terminal window from a 'Finder' window:
Run '/Applications/Utilities/Terminal'.
2. Type the following commands exactly as shown:
sudo rm -rf /Library/QuickTime/lfgvdigx.component
sudo rm -rf /System/Library/Extensions/cdapci.kext
sudo rm -rf "/Library/Documentation/Active Silicon"
exit
3. Then close the terminal window, shutdown and restart the computer.


Do get back to me with the information requested - and let me know if you are still having issues.

Regards

Simon

[samsc]

what refresh rate are your screens?
and your video input?
and catalyst frame rate?


there arent any driver issues with phoenix - there is no quicktime driver-
any issues with phoenix installation need to be referred directly to active silicon- there arent any software/driver issues-


Simon's method is best. I have done this method dozens of times.

Its time consuming but it's the best and only way to resolve issues with capture cards. (Also the same method for the Phoenix Cards with the exception of the driver file.)

I have still seen this happen regardless of any troubleshooting. I am dealing with this very issue in fact in a nightclub. Fortunately I am the only one who notices but it still drives me nuts.

My speculation is electrical noise and subtle phasing problems which cause the digitizer to perceive a drop. I can't confirm this but nothing else makes much sense.

[ajmaudio]

Thanks for your input Richard... glad to see you getting in on this one.

the source is NTSC
catalyst is set at 30fps
Refresh rate is 60.02 I think (1024x768) for the output to led controllers

Based your comments it would be better to lock the playback to some division of the refresh rate I assume?

[samsc]

source ntsc. so somewhere in the region of 29.97Hz ( though not necessarily accurate )

is this a pro camera or an cheap camera setup?

which LED product is/was it?

dmx or dvi?

suggest as a potential first step you try setting frame rate to screen div 2 and see whether it gets better or worse

---

its related to the problem of how to play back the 23.98 movie we had before-
its the same kindof deal-

NTSC video camera signals dont fit neatly into dvi/vga/LED controller refresh rates.




Thanks for your input Richard... glad to see you getting in on this one.

the source is NTSC
catalyst is set at 30fps
Refresh rate is 60.02 I think (1024x768) for the output to led controllers

Based your comments it would be better to lock the playback to some division of the refresh rate I assume?

[jasonrudolph]

I know I'm jumping in a little late here, but I can also recommend the TVone boxes. One thing to note however, is that at least on the 2355, while it can genlock, you need to genlock based on your output format (i.e. tri level for HD, Blackburst for SD) While on an imagepro, you can use black to genlock and HD signal. Not a huge deal, but one you need to know if you are using them. There are actually a few devices out on the market that let you take a blackburst or trilevel signal in, and use that as a reference out for the other type of sync. that are fairly cheap.

[ajmaudio]

Thanks for the continued support Richard.
The cameras are all professional and are going through GV DAs.
The LED is Barco SLIGHT with LED PRO controllers running DVI from Cat to Led Pro

I'll try what you suggest as soon as I can. Could be a bit before I get to try this. Wish this was not the case. It seems like this would fix it. Any other thoughts on this subject?

[ajmaudio]

on a side note... if you wanted to take the time to explain precisely how that few seconds of jittery video happens I would love to hear it from you Richard. The concept is simple enough however I am curious as to what happens with the buffers or whatever it is at that precise time. Understanding is power :)

[samsc]

on a side note... if you wanted to take the time to explain precisely how that few seconds of jittery video happens I would love to hear it from you Richard. The concept is simple enough however I am curious as to what happens with the buffers or whatever it is at that precise time. Understanding is power :)

first of all we need to do some experiments by changing some settings-
there are many different possibilities - sometimes unexpected -

in this situation there isnt usually a technically correct answer -
we have to try to find the best visual solution by changing graphics card settings and catalyst playback rates-

I made these settings available because these situations arise a lot.
and we have to find the best solutions-

i have a lot of situations where the timecode is 25Hz- but the screens only run at 60Hz- for example with element labs controllers used in europe-

sometime the client has to sync to external source without timecode available and the external source runs a little fast or a little slow-

sometimes the frame rates - screen outputs and timecode are all mixed up and cannot be changed...

sometimes projectors really dont like working at 75Hz- only work at 60Hz - but show is at 25FPS... eurovision 2004

i had a show last year with martin lc panels- and they took really strange input rates- i cant remember exactly- but completely non-standard - and the show was run from a laptop- and laptops have refresh rates you cannot change....
and on and on...

----

a very quick technical metaphor is this-

you have 2 conveyor belts running side by side- they have fixed bucket positions- they are not continuous belts- one can transport 899 cabbages per minute- and the other runs slightly faster at 900 cabbages per minute-
how do you get the cabbages from one conveyor belt to the other?
what happens if you cannot exactly or precisely measure the positions of the cabbages?
what happens if the rate of the conveyors changes slightly all the time?
or the positon has some mechanical hysteresis in it?

[samsc]

on a side note... if you wanted to take the time to explain precisely how that few seconds of jittery video happens I would love to hear it from you Richard. The concept is simple enough however I am curious as to what happens with the buffers or whatever it is at that precise time. Understanding is power :)

another really really common thing-

is that people run multiple monitors out of a computer at different sizes and refresh rates-
sometimes they run a triple head and a single screen-

with this - the refresh rates are different to each monitor

vga/dvi have different refresh rates at different sizes-

for 60Hz its somewhere between 60.04 and 59.95

dvi and vga are not constant frame rates at different screen sizes.

then they do video input - at 25 or 29.97 -

an enormous number of possibilities - i try to do the best possible thing for these complex scenarios.

i found a vga frame rate calculator at :
http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/faq/vga2rgb/calc.html

[ajmaudio]

I get the metaphor.. I guess I was looking for more of a precise explanation of what happens in that jittery moment as far as the machine itself....why does it work fine, then jitter, then work fine again. its liek the cabbages line up for a bit then don't... or there is a buffer in there helping out that can only help sooo much or sumthin. Guess I am not explaining myself well. I get that they are different rates and all. I guess I figure if anything this would cause it not to work at all... not the work90 percent of the time.. then not.. then work again thing.

[samsc]

I get the metaphor.. I guess I was looking for more of a precise explanation of what happens in that jittery moment as far as the machine itself....why does it work fine, then jitter, then work fine again. its liek the cabbages line up for a bit then don't... or there is a buffer in there helping out that can only help sooo much or sumthin. Guess I am not explaining myself well. I get that they are different rates and all. I guess I figure if anything this would cause it not to work at all... not the work90 percent of the time.. then not.. then work again thing.

'jitter' isnt a sign of it not working -

its one of two things- 2 frames of video falling within a single screen refresh - or 2 screen refreshes within a single video input-

what happens with buffers - they add a delay- and then people complain about latency... but there are several buffers -

i give access to the buffer settings with frame rate settings- and you can make slight adjustments with these things to compensate for frame things-

you need to try different frame rate settings and see what happens.

[ajmaudio]

thank you for that explanation... makes sense. is it normal for this to occur for several seconds then clear up?

[samsc]

thank you for that explanation... makes sense. is it normal for this to occur for several seconds then clear up?

depends on your screen settings.
and some very specific timing things

did you manage to change the catalyst frame rate to be locked to the monitor refresh rate?

[SourceChild]

I'm in Australia and using a ton of ImagePros the video company provided. The thing is that I hate using the DVI input on an ImagePro with Catalyst, but I am using non standard images sizes that are normally supported by the analog components of the TH2G which I am also using.

In short, those of you who use TH2Gs know how much a pain it is to use ImagePros with Macs much less TH2G boxes. Obviously I would have been find if I had remembered my DVI detectives but I didn't.

What my question regarding this is how the TVOne Boxes stack up when it comes to TH2Gs. The video company is supposed to be bringing out some 2355s for something that came up but they are not here.

I am excited to get my hands on one to play with it. I am also curious too about the 7200s.

I'm probably going to order a dozen of these here soon so I want to know what pros and cons are.

Some of the issues I have already heard are the scaling and sizing issues they have when used as feeds for LED walls. What I was told by several of the LED techs who've used them is that they are great for converting and genlocking but once you begin to scale and size to a low rez wall, they aren't practical.

Any thoughts on this? I apreciate as much opinion as anyone can offer.

Thanks,

[prodigal2]

Todd

If you are only going DVI in and DVI out I would say that the Barco DVI 8x8 Matrix pro is the way to go. Its only drawback is its only a DVI switcher with programmable EDIDs per input.... but its far better solution than DVI detectives, and also means you can have a switching setup for backups.

the downside is there is no scaling or positional stuff, but in truth I really don't like doing that outside of catalyst with LED screens, as it usally means there is latency being added to the system and another point where disaster can bite your gig(lets just say extrons are BANNED on my gigs). And there is no genlock. But for DVI routing they are the business and the latency is a lot less than using a Folsom with DVI in and linking through.


Phil
Philip G Haynes
Live Visual Design and Direction

[SourceChild]

Eh Phil... The thread was "Converting DVI to HDSDI. I prefer staying DVI. In fact, I use fibre and a fibre router in my backup path. The clients I have though are all HDSDI and I pass through their switchers which means I have to Genlock.

[prodigal2]

Eh Phil... The thread was "Converting DVI to HDSDI. I prefer staying DVI. In fact, I use fibre and a fibre router in my backup path. The clients I have though are all HDSDI and I pass through their switchers which means I have to Genlock.

Sorry, I posted before I had finished my first cup of coffee of the day. Numptie of the day award goes to me I believe;)

[rosswill]

I'll add my support for the TV-One products. I own 2355A's and 7200's. I like the fact you get duel channel conversion in a 1U space and use them almost daily. Worth noting the 7200 only supports DVI up to 1280x1024/60 whereas the 2355A supports 1920x1200. in recent firmware the EDID has improved. The only downside for me is lack of DVI loop through for local monitoring, which forces me to include DVI distro in my setup. The plus side however, is that I can output simultaneous DVI, SDI/HDSDI, and CV from Catalyst with ease as well as up/down/cross converting other broadcast feeds to switch to my output device. I think from memory there are 11 inputs on the 7200 and 5 on the 2355A.

Regards

Ross