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efxmaster
09-09-2008, 04:41 PM
Hello all. I have an older Catalyst. It is running M165, but the computer is older. The computer is a Dual G5 2.7GHz with 512 MB of Ram. It does have a SCSI hard drive for content. My question, is that I have a show coming up in a month that really wants to playback HD content. So I have been able to run 1 1080i movie in the Apple Intermediate Codec, but if I try and add a second one it will drop the frame rate of both down to 15FPS. I tried running the same thing on my laptop which is an Intel Duo 2.2GHz with 2GB of ram, but only the normal hard drive that Apple puts in their laptops. It did almost the same thing.

So is the frame dropping problem a processor thing, or is there not enough ram in the Catalyst, or what. I noticed that when I ran it on my laptop the CPU counter I have on my dock never went above 50% for either processor. I thought maybe it was the fact that I am trying to pull more then one HD movie off of a single SCSI drive at once. If I equipped it with and SSD drive would that help?

Thanks for everyones help with this.

Anthony

Marty Postma
09-09-2008, 10:00 PM
Anthony,

It is probably a combination of issues. More importantly the content drive and video card.

What video card are you using, and how much memory does it have?

The SCSI drive is also going to "bottleneck" you if trying to play back multiple HD clips simultaneously.

It wouldn't surprise me if only having 512 MB system RAM is also giving you issues.

Hope this helps:)

efxmaster
10-09-2008, 05:12 PM
So on the side of the hard drive, would upgrading it to an SSD be better? Or what if I added an SSD to it and split the video between the two. I will have to check on the video card. It is out on a rental right now, but I will get it back tomorrow and look.

Thanks for the help.

OlliR
10-09-2008, 05:30 PM
I doubt you will be able to get more than one Full-HD File playing at the same time on a G5 machine.
SSD might speed up things - but I don´t think that things will improve that much - will also depend on your application (curved screens use alot more resources than a flat image...)

efxmaster
10-09-2008, 08:09 PM
No curved screen. It is going to be 3 screens next to each other. We were going to do a blend, but the client did not want to spend the money to get a 36' wide screen. They already had some 12' screens so they are just going to put them next to each other. Won't look as good as a blended screen, but I can't control that. So just 3 outputs. I am going to get a triple head to go so that I can run the 3 screens. So really it is just a matter of being able to play back 3 HD videos.

Improve
11-09-2008, 11:30 AM
.....So just 3 outputs. I am going to get a triple head to go so that I can run the 3 screens. So really it is just a matter of being able to play back 3 HD videos.

I have to warn you... G5's don't support triple heads.... So that won't work.
Either you have to get an extra computer, or get hold of an MACPRO...

efxmaster
11-09-2008, 04:52 PM
So why does it say on Matrox's website that it will work with a Power Mac G5? I have heard of other people using a Triple Head to Go with a G5.

efxmaster
11-09-2008, 05:47 PM
So if I were to get a newer computer to do all of this, what would some recommendations be? Like what speed, how much memory, what graphics card and so forth.

Thanks

samsc
11-09-2008, 06:03 PM
So why does it say on Matrox's website that it will work with a Power Mac G5? I have heard of other people using a Triple Head to Go with a G5.

the earlier g5s dont have enough graphics power to do triple head things-
ati 9800's were poor enough at 1024x768 - without going above that.

the earliest machines i used were the quad 2.5Ghz machines.

samsc
11-09-2008, 06:06 PM
So if I were to get a newer computer to do all of this, what would some recommendations be? Like what speed, how much memory, what graphics card and so forth.

Thanks

you can probably just about get away with
mid range intel mac pro - with 2G RAM - 8800 graphics card.

buy an mtron ssd - then you dont need a scsi card - and they plug straight into the drive tray.


---

you can of course spend as much as you want to spend on extra stuff-
and buy the biggest and best...

samsc
11-09-2008, 06:12 PM
Hello all. I have an older Catalyst. It is running M165, but the computer is older. The computer is a Dual G5 2.7GHz with 512 MB of Ram. It does have a SCSI hard drive for content. My question, is that I have a show coming up in a month that really wants to playback HD content. So I have been able to run 1 1080i movie in the Apple Intermediate Codec, but if I try and add a second one it will drop the frame rate of both down to 15FPS. I tried running the same thing on my laptop which is an Intel Duo 2.2GHz with 2GB of ram, but only the normal hard drive that Apple puts in their laptops. It did almost the same thing.

Anthony

your laptop is faster than your g5 tower...

the scsi drives HES shipped were not good either.

what you see is telling you about the total system performance you can get - its about 30fps for the files you have.
i doubt you will get much more than that.

efxmaster
11-09-2008, 06:21 PM
Thanks Richard.

So with a newer system and a SSD do you think I will be able to get 3 1080i videos to play back?

Thanks for your help.

samsc
11-09-2008, 08:04 PM
Thanks Richard.

So with a newer system and a SSD do you think I will be able to get 3 1080i videos to play back?

Thanks for your help.


you need to check and double check the exact limits of your setup- as they are all different - and there is no comprehensive answer.

--
i can get 3x1080 to play - on newer systems - using AIC codec-

in the end it does depend on the content -

efxmaster
11-09-2008, 08:15 PM
Thanks everyone for the help. I went ahead and ordered a newer Mac. Here is what I ordered.

2 3.0GHz Quad-Core
2GB of Ram
1 320GB 7200 for System
NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT 512 Video Card

I am going to buy the Triple Head 2 Go and a SSD hard drive. What is the best place in the US to buy those?

Also, anyone know how hard it is to transfer the Catalyst software and everything over to the new mac. I have a decklink card that came with it that I would still like to use. Is that hard to move over?

Thanks for the help.

efxmaster
11-09-2008, 08:17 PM
Richard,

You said the AIC codec.

That is the Apple Intermediate Codec right?

Thanks

samsc
11-09-2008, 09:27 PM
Richard,

You said the AIC codec.

That is the Apple Intermediate Codec right?

Thanks

yes.

its the only thing that works well enough

samsc
11-09-2008, 10:15 PM
Thanks everyone for the help. I went ahead and ordered a newer Mac. Here is what I ordered.

2 3.0GHz Quad-Core
2GB of Ram
1 320GB 7200 for System
NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT 512 Video Card

I am going to buy the Triple Head 2 Go and a SSD hard drive. What is the best place in the US to buy those?

Also, anyone know how hard it is to transfer the Catalyst software and everything over to the new mac. I have a decklink card that came with it that I would still like to use. Is that hard to move over?

Thanks for the help.

the decklink card wont work- the new macs use a different pci architecture ( unless you have a very late g5 - some of the last ones used pci-express )

----

with regard to triple head- they only work at certain resolutions- what resolution do you need?

----

in the usa
www.dvnation.com

im sure there are others now.

efxmaster
11-09-2008, 11:31 PM
I will look at the decklink card. If not, would you recommend the new Phoenix card from Activesilicon? According to Matox's website I can use the Triple head in a dual head mode and get 1920X1080 twice. I should be able to use the other output of the 8800 to get the third output at 1920X1080.

Basically 3 screens in HD, some of the content will be in 1080i some will be in smaller sizes, but the client would like the ability to run all 3 in HD if they can.

Thanks

efxmaster
11-09-2008, 11:45 PM
I will look at the decklink card. If not, would you recommend the new Phoenix card from Activesilicon? According to Matox's website I can use the Triple head in a dual head mode and get 1920X1080 twice. I should be able to use the other output of the 8800 to get the third output at 1920X1080.

Basically 3 screens in HD, some of the content will be in 1080i some will be in smaller sizes, but the client would like the ability to run all 3 in HD if they can.

Thanks

samsc
12-09-2008, 08:25 AM
I will look at the decklink card. If not, would you recommend the new Phoenix card from Activesilicon? According to Matox's website I can use the Triple head in a dual head mode and get 1920X1080 twice. I should be able to use the other output of the 8800 to get the third output at 1920X1080.

Basically 3 screens in HD, some of the content will be in 1080i some will be in smaller sizes, but the client would like the ability to run all 3 in HD if they can.

Thanks

you cant do 3 screens in HD with one triple head - they only go up to a certain size

you are really pushing this to try to do 3 HD screens at the same time- the graphics card will need testing by you - you need to try and test your setup.
you cannot get whether it will work from specs- you have to build and mockup and test what you intend-
Third party devices need compatibility testing.



System dependent. Maximum resolutions supported may vary. To verify if your system is compatible with TripleHead2Go, please run our GXM system compatibility tool.

2 Available when TripleHead2Go Digital Edition is connected to the system's dual-link DVI output under Windows XP and Windows Vista operating systems.



What projectors/displays are you using?

samsc
12-09-2008, 08:29 AM
If not, would you recommend the new Phoenix card from Activesilicon?

we are still doing compatibility testing on a range of machines with this card - its only in beta testing

samsc
12-09-2008, 08:30 AM
Basically 3 screens in HD, some of the content will be in 1080i some will be in smaller sizes, but the client would like the ability to run all 3 in HD if they can.

Thanks

most people out there would probably use 2 computers to do this-

efxmaster
13-09-2008, 02:13 AM
I told the client that I would not want to do this with out 3 computers, but they just don't have the cash. They know that it may not work. And if not they are OK with that. I was only going to use the Triple Head to run 2 of the outputs. It says on their website that it will do 2 at 1920X1080. I was going to use the other output to run the third screen. I am going to do some serious testing on this when my new computer gets in.

Thanks for all of your help with this project. I will let everyone know what happens with this.

samsc
13-09-2008, 01:29 PM
I told the client that I would not want to do this with out 3 computers, but they just don't have the cash. They know that it may not work. And if not they are OK with that. I was only going to use the Triple Head to run 2 of the outputs. It says on their website that it will do 2 at 1920X1080. I was going to use the other output to run the third screen. I am going to do some serious testing on this when my new computer gets in.

Thanks for all of your help with this project. I will let everyone know what happens with this.

its says on the matrox site - you need to check...
not all resolutions are supported by all graphics cards or systems..

the graphics card might not support 3 outputs at 1920x1200 either - but it might - you have to check these things.

computer and graphics power is not unlimited.

i myself would not try running more than 2 outputs at 1920 in any configuration - right now- its too close to the edge of performance for safety in a show scenario.

efxmaster
13-09-2008, 04:41 PM
Yes, I would not either, but luckily for me these people are basically beta testers for everything. If there is a new piece of equipment out that has not been tested, they want to test it and give feedback. Like I said, they know that it may not work. I will post back and let everyone know how this comes out.

Also, I meant that I would use the Triple Head to run 2 of the screens and the second output of the computer. It is very possible it wont support it. I can't seem to find any information on their website. I will keep checking.

Thanks

efxmaster
13-09-2008, 11:37 PM
As a backup plan they are going to render everything in 720P also. It should be able to run that right?

Also, they have one video that they want to make custom for the 3 screens. How big of a video will the Catalyst output. I mean 3 screens at 1080i would be a total resolution of 5760X1080. If and I don't even know if a video can be made in that format, if it can, could the Catalyst output it. 3 screens at 720P would be 3840X720. Can it do that.

Thanks for all the help and support for this.

NevBull
14-09-2008, 07:38 AM
The software can do it - can your hardware?? Catalyst software can output pretty much any resolution up to the quicktime limitation - the question should be 'can my hardware run this content?' And thats something only you can answer by testing.

I don't think that anyone on this forum can categorically say what your system is capable of. You need to test these scenarios on your machine with your content. As Richard said, there are too many variables in hardware, OS, software etc.

Personally, I would let an old G5 system deal with SD and lower and would only use a MacPRO with high spec graphics card and SSD drive for anything more than that.

Let us all know how you get on.

Nev.

efxmaster
14-09-2008, 03:05 PM
Richard,

You said that the Phoenix card was still in testing. Do you know where in the US I could get one? I would be willing to do some testing for you. I have access to a building that has HD cameras and equipment that I could bring my Catalyst to and run some test with it. I can set it up to run under show conditions without actually having it run a show.

Let me know because I would be glad to help.

Thanks

SourceChild
19-09-2008, 09:13 AM
A couple of notes, not that I wish to dispute other experts but I have a few results of my own.
They do know what they are talking about and I support them. However, I have tested a few of the scenarios.

A G5 can run a TH2G. I had a client doing this every week. Doesn't make it a good idea. Use a Mac Pro.

A G5 can run 3 layers of 1920x1080 but not on 3 different outputs. The memory size must be increased and you must use an SSD. Basically better to use a Mac Pro.

It is possible to run three screens can run 1920x1200 on a single Mac Pro. I do this now in my studio at home using a Matrox device on one of the outputs.
This is not a setup I would use for a show.

Something else very important to be aware of...
Multiple Catalyst machines can be synchronized to play together. If you do this, be aware that the more you tax one machine, the more likely you will begin to notice a frame delay between the master and the slaves. You won't notice it as much on discretely different screens but if you edge blend, it will be noticeable if there is a frame lag.

efxmaster
21-09-2008, 01:24 AM
Thanks for the help. Does anyone know if the Decklink Extreme HD card works with the Catalyst? I would really like to try and get an HD input card seeing as the SD-SDI Decklink card for Mac Pros is only $100 less the the HD version.

Thanks

efxmaster
21-09-2008, 01:30 AM
Here is another question, if the Decklink Extreme HD works, is there anyway to use the HD-SDI output on it as a mix out in the catalyst? I have a show that is going to be using the catalyst and they will record everything and they asked if I could send them the content. I can just use one of the outs on the TH2G, but then I have to convert it to SDI because that is the only input the switcher has on it. So it would be great if I could just bypass the converter and use the SDI out on the card.

Thanks

NevBull
21-09-2008, 05:30 PM
no - Catalyst outputs from the graphics cards only - nothing comes out of the decklink's SDI outputs. You will have to scan convert the output.

Gian
21-09-2008, 06:02 PM
YES, the decklink works great as INPUT, 1080i no problems.
NO Outputs

SourceChild
21-09-2008, 08:52 PM
Does anyone know if the Decklink Extreme HD card works with the Catalyst?

The decklink extreme will work in new Mc Pro machines. Don't try it in old G5s though because processing HD-SDI is a little much for those.

Mr_P
22-09-2008, 12:39 AM
I will look at the decklink card. If not, would you recommend the new Phoenix card from Activesilicon?

Watch out for frame buffering when using HD-SDI on the decklink on 2007 MacPros - Not tried it on a 2008 MacPro yet.
See Decklink buffering Movie (http://gallery.me.com/simonpugsley#100116/Decklink-20Buffering&bgcolor=black) - scrolling text starts to slow down, then suddenly catches up



Simon

efxmaster
23-09-2008, 01:23 AM
So I just got the new Mac in today. I have not really done anything with it yet except to put the Mtron in. What are the steps involved in putting the Catalyst software on the new computer. Should I just download it from the forum and there it is? I thought I heard once that there is a usb device that must be attached.

Thanks for all the help.

SourceChild
23-09-2008, 02:04 AM
So I just got the new Mac in today. I have not really done anything with it yet except to put the Mtron in. What are the steps involved in putting the Catalyst software on the new computer. Should I just download it from the forum and there it is? I thought I heard once that there is a usb device that must be attached.

Thanks for all the help.

High End created a device they called the CIB (Catalyst Interface Box) when they were distributing Catalyst for Richard. It was as simple as plugging in to make it work. You could use one if you could find one I suppose but their not available new anymore.

Another device and the one I recommend is from Enttec and is called DMX Ethergate MK2. This is an ethernet box that allows for DMX in or DMX out. There are still several other devices that allow you to input DMX. Basically though, all you need is to send Artnet to your ethernet port and you have a working DMX Catalyst.

As for the software, m165 is the official release. Just download it from the website. Once you down load it you copy the application it into a folder called Catalyst (or whatever name you want to call it). The application is the little thing that looks like a red ball and has the extension .app.

The magic of a Mac is that there isn't really an installation process like there is on other platforms: [copy = install] & [delete = uninstall].

I personally have a folder in my Applications folder called Catalyst. In that folder I have dozens of subfolders which are both specific to the show and specific to the version of Catalyst I am using.

Each instance of the Catalyst app creates its own settings files that are stored in the same folder as the Catalyst app. This is the reason I have duplicates in many different folders. That way I can have unique settings for different configurations on the same machine.

You can run any version you want. (Hypothetically you could run versions simultaneously if you wanted to. Don't).

Just run the one you need at the time you need it.

Peter
23-09-2008, 03:12 PM
A G5 can run a TH2G. I have run 800x600@60Hz and 1024x768@75Hz.
Doing this I can run six layers of SD. I have a client that does this now and has been doing 5 shows a week with it for close to 2 years now. All the content is AIC@25fps 2816x768.


Which G5 will be needed to playback max 1 movie SD (3 mix outputs)? Which graphic card, X1900 G5 or can it be less?

And what in the case of 3 movies SD?

samsc
23-09-2008, 03:43 PM
Which G5 will be needed to playback max 1 movie SD (3 mix outputs)? Which graphic card, X1900 G5 or can it be less?

And what in the case of 3 movies SD?

this posted information is very very misleading-

x1900 only worked on pci-e g5's -which was only the last revision from Oct 2005 - almost noone has these.
everyone refers to 'g5' as older pci or pcix macs.

---

samsc
23-09-2008, 03:46 PM
YES
A G5 can run a TH2G. I have run 800x600@60Hz and 1024x768@75Hz.
Doing this I can run six layers of SD. I have a client that does this now and has been doing 5 shows a week with it for close to 2 years now. All the content is AIC@25fps 2816x768.



the original poster was referring to a pcix dual 2.7Ghz g5- the pci-x g5's cannot do anywhere near this kindof thing.

samsc
23-09-2008, 04:01 PM
YES
A G5 can run 3 layers of 1920x1080 progressive (note that this is not 1080p or 1080i).


what do you mean by this?

This makes no sense...



The video card must be changed and the computer requires more than 2Gb of memory and an SSD.


change the video card? from what to what?



I have done this with few frame drops only on a single output system. Absolutely no sync though, it started dropping frames like mad when I tried to sync.


No idea what you mean by this - but it seems you might be contradicting yourself in saying it worked...

this is all mixed up - and refers to multiple things all in one sentence - each one of which is unclear and ambiguous.



YES
Three screens can run 1920x1200 on a single Mac Pro. I do this now in my studio at home. Two on a TH2G digital in Dual head mode and one on the second output using X1900XT.
This is very taxing on the system if I run video on the TH2G output. Video on the single screen works fine.



? ? ? ?

you say it works - then you say it doesnt.... and only works on a single screen....



Another possibility you can try is to use Fibre channel cards in a Mac Pro and in a G5. Use the same disk in your Pro and Fibre link it to the G5. You could then run HD on each output of the Pro and a single on the G5.
This is not necessarily a good idea but it would work.



??????? fibre link discs ??????? why? what would that achieve?
sharing discs?

Im not aware of any way to do this.



Something else very important to be aware of... If you try to sync different edge blended machines, you will experience frame delays across projectors. You won't notice this if you have separate screens side by side but you will most certainly notice when you have edge blending from different computers. It's subtle but something you'll notice with fast moving content across an edge blend done by multiple machines.

i cant see how this relates to the beginning of this post ?????

SourceChild
23-09-2008, 09:11 PM
Which G5 will be needed to playback max 1 movie SD (3 mix outputs)?

If you have a newer G5 that has the PCIe you can get an X1900XT.
If you have an older PCI-X G5 I suggest getting a new Mac Pro.

You could use a DH2G on the X1900 and run three outputs but I don't recommend it.



And what in the case of 3 movies SD?

A G5 can run 3 layers of SD without a faster disk or better video card. I strongly suggest a Mac Pro instead with an Mtron SSD and X1900XT.

efxmaster
01-10-2008, 05:30 AM
Ok, I for some reason cannot get the Decklink to work. Brand new decklink extreme HD. I have it in slot 2. When I called Blackmagic, they told me that it needed to be in slot 4. When I moved it up there, the Catalyst started running very slow. Like it would only play things back at 15FPS. And I mean like simple DV movies. When I moved it back to slot 2, the Catalyst started working like it should, but I still cannot get it to work. I can see the video using the Deck control software that came with the card, but when I go into Catalyst to set it up, I either get Black, or green lines.

Any thoughts?

I will put up some pics of this event, because it turned out to be really cool. I had to do some keystone correcting on 2 of the screens, and they client was blown away that it could do that.

Thanks for everyones support with this.

Mr_P
02-10-2008, 11:13 AM
Ok, I for some reason cannot get the Decklink to work. Brand new decklink extreme HD. I have it in slot 2. When I called Blackmagic, they told me that it needed to be in slot 4. When I moved it up there, the Catalyst started running very slow. Like it would only play things back at 15FPS. And I mean like simple DV movies. When I moved it back to slot 2, the Catalyst started working like it should, but I still cannot get it to work. I can see the video using the Deck control software that came with the card, but when I go into Catalyst to set it up, I either get Black, or green lines.

Any thoughts?

Lets backtrack a little here:

What mac do you have? G5/intel/2007/2008
What OS?
What version of Catalyst are you using?
What version of Decklink HD Extreme drivers are you using?

Can you post a 'support' PDF profile'

Were you trying to use the deckink control software at the same time as catalyst?


I've just configured an HD Extreme (old model without HDMI) for a client with no issues on a 2007 3.0G intel MacPro, using latest available drivers and m165 - card was in top slot and configured with the Expansion slot Utility in Tiger. Input and output was set to uncompressed SD-SDI

S

efxmaster
03-10-2008, 01:33 AM
Ok, I will try and post a support PDF.

To answer some question, Brand New Mac Pro (came in 2 weeks ago)
8 - 3.0GHz core
2GB of Ram
32GB Mtron SSD
Nividia 8800 ( I think that is the graphics card, I am not in front of it right now)
OS 10.5.4
Catalyst m165
Decklink Extreme HD 6.8.1.

I have it in slot 2 right now, because when I put it in slot 4 and then put the catalyst in full screen, the second bar at the bottom ( sorry don't remember what it reads ) goes all the way up to 200% and every movie I have plays back at 15FPS no matter what format or size it is in. At one point i got the signal using the Blackmagic deck control software, but when I closed that and opened Catalyst, still nothing. I think the signal source may have not been right. After this show is over, I am going to look into it more. My bigger question is why Catalyst starts playing back slow when I put the Decklink card in the top slot. Do you think it has something to do with OS 10.5.4? If so, how would I get a copy of Tiger?

Thanks for the help.

samsc
03-10-2008, 07:01 AM
Ok, I will try and post a support PDF.

To answer some question, Brand New Mac Pro (came in 2 weeks ago)
8 - 3.0GHz core
2GB of Ram
32GB Mtron SSD
Nividia 8800 ( I think that is the graphics card, I am not in front of it right now)
OS 10.5.4
Catalyst m165
Decklink Extreme HD 6.8.1.

I have it in slot 2 right now, because when I put it in slot 4 and then put the catalyst in full screen, the second bar at the bottom ( sorry don't remember what it reads ) goes all the way up to 200% and every movie I have plays back at 15FPS no matter what format or size it is in. At one point i got the signal using the Blackmagic deck control software, but when I closed that and opened Catalyst, still nothing. I think the signal source may have not been right. After this show is over, I am going to look into it more. My bigger question is why Catalyst starts playing back slow when I put the Decklink card in the top slot. Do you think it has something to do with OS 10.5.4? If so, how would I get a copy of Tiger?

Thanks for the help.

check the decklink system preferences- make sure you do not have decklink desktop output turned on-
its in the system preferences->decklink

this used to be turned on by default whenever any software is installed.

Mr_P
03-10-2008, 10:38 AM
Also - don't install Tiger on a brand new 2008 MacPro - stick with Leopard.

I'll have access to my system later with HD Extreme in it - I'll take some snapshots of the preferences panels which may help you to diagnose your problems.

S

samsc
03-10-2008, 12:19 PM
Also - don't install Tiger on a brand new 2008 MacPro - stick with Leopard.

I'll have access to my system later with HD Extreme in it - I'll take some snapshots of the preferences panels which may help you to diagnose your problems.

S

there is only one decklink preference that matters so far- thats the decklink video desktop. this must be turned off.

sounds to me like the main output screen is set to the decklink card.

none of the other problems here have been reported or relate to catalyst.

the card slot of the decklink card matters very little when doing video input.

efxmaster
30-10-2008, 01:23 AM
Thanks for everyones help. The show went great, and everyone was blown away by what the Catalyst was capable of. I ended up using 3 screens, 2 of which were at a very bad spot to project from. So I did not have a direct path to the screen, I had to put it off center and use the keystone feature on the mix output to correct for it. That was the main thing that blew away everyone. It looked great and was able to handle the videos fine. Here are a few pics of the event. In one of the pics you can see the Catalyst menus on the wall next to the screen.